FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY THE MCCUNE CHARITABLE FOUNDATION.

AND THE NEEPER NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAMMING FUND FOR KNME-TV.

AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS, LAWMAKERS ARE BACK INSIDE THE ROUNDHOUSE.

THE PROGRESS MADE ON THE STATE'S REDISTRICTING EFFORTS.

Zoe: THEY'VE BEEN HERE FOR A LONG TIME AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GO ANYWHERE, AND SO I THINK THE KEY IS REALLY SORT OF LEARNING ABOUT THEM.

Gene: PLUS, UNCOVERING OUR HIDDEN URBAN WILDLIFE AND LEARNING HOW TO LIVE MORE IN HARMONY WITH THOSE POPULATIONS.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

WE'RE TRACKING BREAKING DEVELOPMENTS IN THE POTENTIAL MERGER BETWEEN PNM AND EAST COAST POWER COMPANY AVANGRID.

WE'LL EXPLAIN WHY NEW MEXICO'S PUBLIC REGULATION COMMISSION WENT FURTHER THAN EXPECTED STRIKING DOWN THE PROPOSED MERGER COMPLETELY.

OUR LINE OPINION PANEL.

REACTS TO THAT DECISION, AND THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSAL TO GIVE EDUCATORS A SIZEABLE PAY BUMP WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR.

LEGISLATORS WILL HAVE A SAY ON THAT, BUT NOT BEFORE THEY TACKLE REDRAWING POLITICAL DISTRICT LINES ACROSS THE STATE.

LET'S GET RIGHT TO THE LINE.

Gene: WE HAVE SOME GOOD PERSPECTIVE THIS WEEK ON WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SANTA FE.

WE'RE JOINED BY TWO FORMER STATE SENATORS, REPUBLICAN DIANE SNYDER AND DEMOCRAT ERIC GRIEGO.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

WE'RE ALSO WELCOMING BACK FRIEND OF THE SHOW TOM GARRITY OF THE PUBLIC RELATIONS COMPANY.

WE'RE ALWAYS GLAD WHEN TOM'S HERE.

ALL RIGHT, GUYS, THE ACTION IS COMING SLOW AND DELIBERATE IN THE ROUNDHOUSE.

LAWMAKERS ARE PLANNING FOR UP TO 12 DAYS OF WORK TO HASH OUT THESE REDISTRICTING DECISIONS.

AND TOM, SO FAR, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE APPROACH?

Tom: UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S KIND OF WHAT WE THOUGHT MIGHT HAPPEN.

BY DISCLOSURE, ON THE TOPIC OF REDISTRICTING, I DO HAVE SOME CLIENTS IN THAT PARTICULAR SPACE.

MY VIEWS ARE MY OWN.

WITH RESPECT TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IS, I THINK WHAT WE SAW WAS THAT THE CITIZEN REDISTRICTING COMMITTEE MADE THEIR SUGGESTIONS AFTER TWO STATE-WIDE HEARINGS, THEY DEVELOPED A SET OF MAPS FOR EACH OF THE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES AND SUBMITTED THOSE MAPS, AND I THINK THE LEGISLATURE JUST SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT, I THINK WE COULD PROBABLY IMPROVE UPON THESE, AT WHICH POINT IT JUST REALLY KIND OF TOOK OUT THE WHOLE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE OVER PLACE, OR RATHER POLITICS IS REALLY KIND OF TAKING OVER.

AND THAT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE I THINK THAT THERE DEFINITELY ISN'T ANY SUBSTANTIAL PUBLIC INPUT ON THESE DIFFERENT MAPS OR EVEN ON THIS PROCESS, AND I'M CONCERNED THAT, UNFORTUNATELY, PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING IS GOING TO BECOME THE RULE OF THE DAY.

Gene: LET'S GO TO OUR POLITICIANS ON THAT ONE.

NICE SET-UP THERE, TOM.

ERIC GRIEGO, FORMER SENATOR ERIC GRIEGO, AS TOM MENTIONED, LAWMAKERS ARE SHOWING NO FEAR IN JUST TURNING AWAY FROM WHAT THE CRC CAME UP WITH, AND WE DON'T KNOW -- YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ARGUING TODAY AS WE RECORD THIS, SO WE DON'T HAVE THE LATEST, LATEST, LATEST.

BUT YOUR SENSE OF IT SO FAR, OF WHAT YOU'VE SEEN, ARE THE MAPS THAT JUSTICE CHAVEZ AND OTHERS HANDED IN JUST TOAST AT THIS POINT?

Sen. Griego: WELL, TO BE FAIR, I DON'T THINK THEY'RE STARTING FROM SCRATCH.

I THINK THE RECOMMENDED MAPS, IN MOST CASES AS FAR AS I'VE SEEN, HAVE THE BASIS, THE POINT OF DEPARTURE.

AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT THEY'VE BEEN TWEAKED, SOME MORE THAN OTHERS.

SO I WASN'T CRAZY ABOUT ALL THE MAPS, BUT CERTAINLY -- Gene: ALL THE MAPS THAT CAME OUT OF THE CRC?

Sen. Griego: YES, THAT CAME OUT OF THE CRC.

AND I MEAN, I SUPPORTED THIS IDEA OF HAVING AN INDEPENDENT BODY DO IT.

I THINK THEY DID A REASONABLE JOB OF TRYING TO TAKE A LOT OF PUBLIC INPUT.

I THINK THE MAPS THEY CAME UP WITH, FOR THE MOST PART, WERE PRETTY FAIR.

AND AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW, BECAUSE THEY'RE LITERALLY, AS YOU SAID, VOTING ON THEM AS WE SPEAK, SO WE DON'T KNOW, AND I WAS JUST TALKING TO A FORMER COLLEAGUE BEFORE THE SHOW AND, LIKE, THEY DON'T KNOW.

THERE WAS AMENDMENTS BEING OFFERED AND SO ON.

I WENT THROUGH THIS TEN YEARS WHEN I WAS IN THE SENATE, I THINK SENATOR SNYDER MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE, TOO, BUT THERE'S CHANGES UP UNTIL THE END.

AND JUST TO BE CLEAR FOR THE VIEWERS, NO MATTER HOW THESE THINGS COME OUT, THEY'RE GOING TO BE CHALLENGED LEGALLY.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME.

THE COURTS WILL ULTIMATELY DECIDE IF THEY WERE FAIR OR IF THERE WAS ANYTHING UNTOWARD.

BUT I THINK -- I KNOW WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS, BUT THE BIGGEST CHANGE I THINK THAT'S REALLY CAUSED A BIT OF A DUST-UP IS THIS IDEA THAT WE SHOULD HAVE -- REALLY, RE-DRAW THE CONGRESSIONAL MAPS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE EVERYBODY'S FOCUSED.

BUT THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER STUFF GOING ON, ESPECIALLY IN THE STATE SENATE WHERE DIANE AND I SERVED.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME PRETTY BIG CHANGES TO THE DISTRICTS ON THE SENATE SIDE, AS WELL, IN THE STATE SENATE.

THE HOUSE HAS KIND OF LESS GOING ON THERE.

BUT I THINK THE BIG CHANGE THAT PERHAPS FOLKS ARE NOT HAPPY WITH IS THAT THERE WILL BE THREE DEMOCRATIC LEANING DISTRICTS AS OPPOSED TO TWO DEMOCRATIC AND ONE REPUBLICAN, AND NO MATTER WHERE YOU COME OUT ON THAT, I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

GIVEN THE STAKES, I THINK IF THE REPUBLICANS WERE IN CONTROL, YOU CAN BE ASSURED THAT THEY WOULD TRY TO BE REDRAWING THESE DISTRICTS THE SAME WAY.

SO ULTIMATELY I THINK A COURT IS GOING TO DECIDE.

THE COURT IS GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO ACCEPT WHAT COMES OUT OF THE LEGISLATURE WHEN THEY'RE DONE NEXT WEEK.

Gene: SENATOR SNYDER, I WANT TO GET TO THIS POINT OF DEMOCRAT VS. REPUBLICAN, BUT JUST BEAR WITH ME A QUICK SEC, BECAUSE ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES ALREADY HAS BEEN AROUND ONE OF THE CRC MAPS WHICH WAS ORIGINALLY SUBMITTED BY THE CENTER FOR CIVIC POLICY.

THE MAP WOULD SHIFT OUR NATIONAL CONGRESSIONAL MAPS DRASTICALLY, AS ERIC MENTIONED, WITH A GOAL OF REPORTEDLY -- AND WE ALL GET THIS -- ENHANCING HISPANIC AND LATINO VOICES AND OTHERS.

THAT MAY SOUND GOOD ON THE SURFACE, BUT THE DECISIONS ARE ALL TRADE-OFFS, AREN'T THEY?

Sen. Snyder: EVERY DECISION IN REDISTRICTING IS A TRADE-OFF.

JUST ONE QUICK UPDATE.

I WAS THERE FOR THE 2001 REDISTRICTING.

AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, WE CONVENED ON MONDAY, AND ON TUESDAY MORNING 9/11 HAPPENED.

SO WE HAD A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ATMOSPHERE IN THE SENATE -- OR, WELL, IN THE LEGISLATURE, TO GO THROUGH REDISTRICTING.

DIDN'T MEAN WE DIDN'T GET OVER IT AND GET A LITTLE BIT NASTY ALONG THE WAY.

THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE I THINK RIGHT NOW IS THAT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN, WHAT, 30 YEARS OR SO THAT WE'VE HAD, IN THE -- YES, THE LAST TWO REDISTRICTINGS, WHERE THE EXECUTIVE AND BOTH CHAMBERS ARE CONTROLLED BY ONE PARTY.

ALWAYS BEFORE WE HAD A GOVERNOR THAT VETOED IT, AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE TWO PLANS WENT TO THE COURTS.

I THINK WE WILL END UP IN COURT.

I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY THE JUDICIAL REASON FOR US GOING, BUT I DO THINK THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THAT THE PUBLIC WILL ACCEPT IT.

I THINK THAT -- I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK AND LOOK AT THIS.

I, TOO, SUPPORTED THE IDEA OF AN INDEPENDENT PARTY, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS AN INDEPENDENT GROUP OF PEOPLE.

BUT THAT'S MY PERSONAL OPINION.

BUT OTHERS HOLD THAT.

I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE -- EVEN SENATOR CERVANTES' BILL, WHICH IS IN THE SENATE HAS BEEN INTRODUCED, AND HE AND REPRESENTATIVE -- ANYWAY, WHAT REPRESENTATIVES HAVE INTRODUCED, GOES ALONG THE LINES OF DIVIDING UP ALBUQUERQUE INTO THREE DISTRICTS.

I'M SORRY, I DON'T SEE THE AREAS OF COMMONALITY.

I CAN'T SEE THAT HOBBS HAS ANYTHING IN COMMON WITH SANTA FE, OR ALBUQUERQUE WITH ROSWELL, OR ANY OF THOSE.

OR, SAY, LAS CRUCES WITH FARMINGTON.

AND I BELIEVE IN HAVING EQUITABLE, AND I THINK THAT IN SEVERAL OF THE PLANS, THERE WERE EFFORTS MADE WITH PARTICULARLY NATIVE AMERICANS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE REPRESENTED IN THE HOUSE AND IN THE SENATE, AS WELL, AND I THINK THAT'S THE AREA WHERE WE'VE BEEN MOST NEGLIGENT OVER THE YEARS.

Gene: LET ME SWING TOM IN HERE, SENATOR, FOR JUST A QUICK SEC.

I WANT TO TOUCH ON THIS IDEA YOU JUST MENTIONED ABOUT SPLITTING ALBUQUERQUE UP.

TOM, THE IDEA THAT ROSWELL AND CARRIZOZO WOULD BE INCLUDED WITH A SECTION OF ALBUQUERQUE, OR THAT A SECTION OF ALBUQUERQUE THAT WOULD BE DEEMED MORE RURAL SOMEHOW SHOULD BE MASHED IN WITH ANOTHER DISTRICT, IS THERE A DOWNSIDE TO THE URBAN CENTER IF THIS, IN FACT, HAPPENS?

Tom: OH, MOST DEFINITELY, BECAUSE THE REASON -- YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THAT PARTICULAR MAP IS BEING PROPOSED IS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT ALBUQUERQUE WILL BE ABLE TO SWAY THE ELECTION ONE WAY OR ANOTHER FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT.

AND THE ONE THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW DOES NOT PASS MUSTER WITH RESPECT TO COMPETITIVENESS OR PARTISANSHIP, AND SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS, BASICALLY WE WOULD HAVE THREE DISTRICTS THAT ARE TRULY ONLY LEANING TO ONE SIDE, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO THE PARTISAN -- THE PRINCETON GERRYMANDERING PROJECT.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE ONLY REASON WHY SOMEBODY WOULD WANT TO SPLIT UP ALBUQUERQUE THREE WAYS.

MY GUESS IS THAT REPRESENTATIVE STANSBURY WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE IN FAVOR OF HAVING HER DISTRICT CUT UP TO BENEFIT THE THIRD CONGRESSIONAL, OR THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL.

SO THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF TRADING GOING ON.

BUT IT COULD BE REALLY SIMPLE IF WE JUST WENT BACK TO CONCEPT A THAT WAS PRESENTED BY JUSTICE CHAVEZ AND THE CRC.

Gene: ERIC, PLEASE DO PICK UP ON THAT, AND I'VE GOT A FOLLOW-UP FOR YOU.

BUT AGAIN, WE'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE 20 HERE.

Sen. Griego: YES, JUST QUICKLY ON THAT, THERE'S ALWAYS IN THE LEGISLATURE IN NEW MEXICO, ALWAYS THIS DISCUSSION OF THE RURAL/URBAN DIVIDE.

AND I THINK IF THIS WAS REALLY ABOUT UNITY -- I MEAN, I WILL PERSONALLY BE AFFECTED, BECAUSE I'LL BE PUSHED OUT OF THIS URBAN DISTRICT INTO A SOUTHERN DISTRICT UNDER THIS PARTICULAR MAP.

BUT I HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALWAYS, IN THE LEGISLATURE -- AND YOU'VE SEEN THIS -- THERE'S ALWAYS THIS SPLIT.

EVERYBODY LOVES BEATING UP ON ALBUQUERQUE IN THE RURAL COMMUNITIES.

I THINK ALL THREE MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE SOME RURAL COMMUNITIES, SOME SMALL COMMUNITIES, BUT THEY ALSO SHOULD HAVE A PIECE OF ALBUQUERQUE, AND WHETHER THEY'RE REPUBLICANS ON DEMOCRATS.

LOOK, HEATHER WILSON WAS MY CONGRESS PERSON FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, AS WAS STEVE SCHIFF.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT SHOULDN'T ALWAYS BE THAT ALBUQUERQUE, THE GREATER ALBUQUERQUE AREA, IS ITS OWN ISLAND, AS THE BIGGEST CITY IN THE STATE.

I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY A VERY REASONABLE PRINCIPLE TO SAY, LET'S MAKE EVERYBODY HAVE A STAKE IN RURAL NEW MEXICO AND IN THE MOST URBAN AREA.

Gene: ERIC, IT MAY BE REASONABLE, BUT IS IT PRACTICAL?

I MEAN, IS IT REALLY -- I MEAN, WE'RE A HUGE STATE.

WE'RE A MASSIVELY HUGE STATE.

IS IT REALLY PRACTICAL TO HAVE SOMEONE MANY, MANY MILES AWAY FROM THE CENTER OF ALBUQUERQUE AND THEY CAN CONNECT SOMEHOW?

I CAN'T QUITE SEE THAT.

Sen. Griego: LOOK AT THE CURRENT DISTRICTS.

YOU HAVE MASSIVE DISTRICTS THAT GO FROM THE FOUR CORNERS AREA TO BASICALLY THE SOUTHERN AREA, SO LITERALLY A 200 TO 300-MILE DISTRICT.

BUT THEY HAPPEN TO BE TWO OF THE DISTRICTS, AND ONLY ONE IS VERY COMPACT.

SO ESSENTIALLY, WE'VE DIVIDED THE FIFTH LARGEST STATE BY LAND MASS INTO TWO MASSIVE VERY SPREAD-OUT DISTRICTS, AND PACKED ALBUQUERQUE INTO ONE.

SO AGAIN, EVEN BY THAT PRINCIPLE, GENE, YOU WOULD THINK WE WOULD WANT TO -- LET'S FIND A WAY, WHETHER IT'S THIS MAP OR ANOTHER WAY, TO HAVE EVERYBODY HAVE A STAKE IN RURAL AND URBAN NEW MEXICO.

Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

HEY, WE'LL BE KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON THAT SPECIAL SESSION, SO STICK WITH US ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR UPDATES, AND OF COURSE MORE ANALYSIS NEXT WEEK RIGHT HERE ON NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

Gene: JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR SAM QUINONES HAS BEEN ON THE CUTTING EDGE IN RECENT YEARS COVERING THE EVOLVING DRUG TRADE AND THE INCREASINGLY DEADLY DRUG EPIDEMIC HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS WEEK, HE SAT DOWN WITH CORRESPONDENT LAURA PASKUS TO TALK ABOUT HIS LATEST BOOK.

"THE LEAST OF US: TRUE TALES OF AMERICA AND HOPE IN THE TIME OF FENTANYL AND METH."

IT'S A HARD TOPIC, BUT ONE INCREASINGLY RELEVANT TO NEW MEXICO FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES.

Laura: THANKS FOR COMING BACK ON THE SHOW, SAM.

Sam: IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE, LAURA.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

Laura: SO I'D LIKE TO START BY ASKING YOU TO READ A PARAGRAPH AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR BOOK.

I FELT LIKE I KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO BE A TOUGH BOOK TO READ, AND I FEEL LIKE THIS PARTICULAR PARAGRAPH ON PAGE 9 GAVE ME THE HOPE THAT I COULD GET THROUGH THIS BOOK, AND I THINK IT WILL HELP OUR AUDIENCE, AS WELL.

Sam: SURE, HAPPY TO.

"I CAME TO SEE THAT ADDICTS GRIPPED BY DRUG-INDUCED SELF-CENTEREDNESS AND ISOLATION ARE JUST EXTREME EXAMPLES OF EACH OF US IN OUR TIME.

ONCE FREED, THEY DISCOVER WHAT WE ALL NEED.

THEY DISCOVER GRACE, PATIENCE WITH OTHERS, A FEELING OF BEING PART OF SOMETHING BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES, OPTIMISM AND GRATITUDE, A RECOGNITION OF THEMSELVES IN OTHERS.

IF WE'RE LUCKY, WE'LL COME OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ALL THAT BESETS US AS AMERICANS AS I WRITE WITH THE INSIGHT THAT RECOVERING ADDICTS RECEIVE, AND WITH WISDOM ENOUGH TO GLIMPSE OURSELVES IN THEM.

IF SO, WE'LL BE BETTER FOR IT."

Laura: THANK YOU, SAM.

SO I FEEL LIKE IN "THE LEAST OF US," THERE'S KIND OF FOUR CLASSES OF DRUGS THAT YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT: HEROIN, THESE PHARMACEUTICAL OPIOIDS, FENTANYL, AND THIS NEW METH, P2P.

Sam: RIGHT.

Laura: CAN YOU KIND OF GIVE US, LIKE, THE 101 ON THESE FOUR?

Sam: YES.

AND I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW, WHAT WE'VE BEEN IN THE MIDDLE OF FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS IS THE TRANSITION OF THE TRAFFICKING WORLD IN MEXICO AWAY FROM THE STANDARD DRUGS THAT THEY'VE OFTEN BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH -- HEROIN POPPIES, GROWING POPPIES AND SO ON, AND MARIJUANA -- AND TOWARDS SYNTHETIC DRUGS PREDOMINANTLY.

AND THE SYNTHETIC DRUGS HAVE NEVER SEEN A PLANT.

THEY'RE JUST CHEMICALLY MADE IN LABS.

THIS HAS HAPPENED NOT BECAUSE OF NECESSARILY ANY DEMAND IN THE UNITED STATES FOR THIS STUFF, THIS HAPPENS ENTIRELY BECAUSE IT BENEFITS TRAFFICKERS.

THEY NO LONGER NEED LAND OR RAINFALL OR SUNLIGHT.

THEY NO LONGER NEED A LARGE FARMING/HARVESTING CREW.

THEY NO LONGER NEED SEASONS.

THEY CAN JUST -- ALL THEY REALLY NEED NOW IS PORTS, SHIPPING PORTS, BECAUSE THROUGH SHIPPING PORTS, THEY GET ALL THE CHEMICALS FROM THE WORLD MARKETS -- PRIMARILY CHINA, BUT ALSO OTHER COMPANIES, AS WELL.

NOT EXCLUSIVE TO ANY ONE COUNTRY -- THAT THEY WOULD NEED TO PRODUCE THESE DRUGS, IF THEY CAN CONTROL THOSE PORTS.

AND IN MEXICO, GIVEN THEIR ENORMOUS POWER AND THEIR ABILITY AND THEIR GUNS THAT THEY GET, FRANKLY FROM US, THEY'RE ABLE TO CONTROL THAT.

AND SO THOSE CHEMICALS HAVE BEEN COMING IN UNRELENTING CONTAINER LOADS FOR MANY YEARS, AND THIS HAS ALLOWED THEM TO TRANSITION, AND MORE AND MORE PEOPLE GET INTO THE PRODUCTION OF THESE DRUGS.

SO WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE THIS SHIFT AWAY FROM PLANT-BASED DRUGS, BUT THE SUPPLIES ARE JUST STAGGERING, JUST BREATH-TAKING AMOUNTS.

SO MUCH SO THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REALLY, IN ESSENCE, COVER THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES WITH THESE DRUGS, WHICH IS AN UNPRECEDENTED ACHIEVEMENT IN THE UNDERWORLD.

WE'VE NEVER HAD ONE SOURCE COVER THE ENTIRE COUNTRY WITH ONE DRUG, LET ALONE TWO, AND YET THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE'RE FINDING HERE.

Laura: SO I FEEL LIKE LOTS OF PEOPLE IN OUR AUDIENCE, YOU KNOW, HAVE HEARD ABOUT OPIOIDS AND KNOW WHAT HEROIN IS, BUT WHAT IS FENTANYL AND WHAT IS P2P?

Sam: FENTANYL IS A SYNTHETIC OPIOID.

IT HITS THE SAME RECEPTORS IN OUR BRAIN.

IT'S A MARVELOUS DRUG USED MEDICALLY.

IN SURGERY, IT HAS REVOLUTIONIZED SURGERY.

AND I'LL BET MANY OF YOUR LISTENERS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FENTANYL IN THE SURGICAL SETTING.

THAT'S ONE SETTING.

WHEN IT'S IN THE HANDS OF THE UNDERWORLD, IT BECOMES AN EXTRAORDINARILY DANGEROUS DRUG, BECAUSE IT'S SO MUCH MORE POTENT THAN MORPHINE AND HEROIN AND THESE OTHER OPIOIDS THAT WE'RE USED TO HEARING MORE ABOUT.

BUT BECAUSE IT'S MADE IN SUCH STAGGERING QUANTITIES, AND BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED VERY MUCH, YOU KNOW, IT'S SO POTENT THAT A SMALL AMOUNT WILL MAKE YOU A LOT OF MONEY, YOU'RE FINDING NOW THAT THE DEALING WORLD, PARTICULARLY DEALERS CLOSER TO THE STREET, HAVE BEEN USING IT TO SPRINKLE INTO, FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, YOU KNOW, MIX INTO OTHER DRUGS.

SO YOU FIND IT NOW FREQUENTLY IN COCAINE.

YOU FIND IN METHAMPHETAMINE.

THERE ARE RARE OCCASIONS, ALTHOUGH I THINK IT DOES HAPPEN, WHEN WE FIND IT IN MARIJUANA.

AND SO IT'S TRANSFORMED.

THEY SAY ON THE STREET, FENTANYL CHANGES EVERYTHING.

YES, IT'S TOTALLY TRANSFORMED DRUG USE, WHO GETS WEALTHY, BECAUSE IT'S SO WIDESPREAD.

ALMOST ANYBODY CAN BE SELLING WHAT USED TO BE CONSIDERED, YOU KNOW, KINGPIN-TYPE QUANTITIES OF THIS STUFF, AND THAT MEANS THAT THAT JUST ADDS TO THE DISTRIBUTION.

MORE AND MORE PEOPLE DISTRIBUTING IT MEANS IT GETS TO MORE AND MORE PLACES.

Laura: YOU WRITE IN YOUR BOOK, YOUR LATEST BOOK, "THE DAYS OF RECREATIONAL DRUG USE ARE OVER IN AMERICA."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

Sam: WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS JUST WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO.

YOU CANNOT TAKE -- YOU KNOW IT USED TO BE, I GREW UP IN A TIME WHEN IT WAS COMMONPLACE FOR PEOPLE AT PARTIES, YOU KNOW, A LINE COCAINE?

OH, SURE, THAT'S NO PROBLEM.

A PILL?

OKAY, FINE, NO PROBLEM.

WELL, THOSE DAYS I DON'T BELIEVE EXIST ANYMORE.

YOU CANNOT TRUST ANY DRUG OUT THERE RIGHT NOW THAT YOU DID NOT BUY FROM A PHARMACY IN A PHARMACEUTICAL BOTTLE.

THAT'S IT.

EVEN YOUR BEST FRIEND GIVING YOU A PILL, YOU HAVE TO SUSPECT IT.

THE OTHER PART OF THIS IS BECAUSE IT'S MADE IN SUCH QUANTITIES, THE MEXICAN TRAFFICKING WORLD HAS TAKEN TO PACKAGING FENTANYL NOW IN THE FORM OF COUNTERFEIT PHONY BRAND-NAME PILLS THAT LOOK LIKE PERCOCET OR XANAX OR OXYCODONE.

GENERIC 30-MILLIGRAM BLUE PILLS ARE VERY, VERY COMMON.

THAT'S REALLY THE PILL THAT STARTED IT ALL.

THEY FIGURED OUT, HEY, WE CAN JUST PRESS THESE AND PUT FENTANYL IN THESE.

ALL THOSE PILLS CONTAIN IS FENTANYL.

AND MANY OF THEM NOW ARE BEING REPORTED TO CONTAIN SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF FENTANYL THAT WILL KILL A NAIVE, A PERSON WHO HAS NEVER USED BEFORE, A USER WHO'S NEVER DONE IT.

AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE FINDING.

FENTANYL, BECAUSE IT'S SO COMMON, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN NOW SPRINKLED, MIXED INTO OTHER DRUGS, WHICH WE HAVE ALSO NEVER SEEN IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY, THE DEATH TOLL IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING IT IS, WHICH IS 100,000 DEATHS JUST REPORTED LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS IN A 12-MONTH PERIOD.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE THOSE 12-MONTH PERIODS CONTINUALLY BE AT OR NEAR 100,000 DEATHS FOR A WHILE NOW.

Laura: YOU REALLY KIND OF GET AT THIS IN YOUR BOOK IN MULTIPLE PLACES THAT HIT ME AS A PARENT, THAT KIDS TODAY DON'T GET TO MAKE A MISTAKE WITH DRUGS.

Sam: NO.

Laura: THERE AREN'T SECOND CHANCES.

Sam: THERE ARE NONE.

Laura: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

Sam: YES.

IT'S A VERY UNFORGIVING WORLD, AND THAT'S BECAUSE DRUGS NOW ARE VERY CHEAP, VERY PREVALENT -- THEY'RE EVERYWHERE.

AS I SAID, THEY COVER THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

AND EXTRAORDINARILY POTENT IN WAYS THAT WE NEVER KNEW.

THE DRUGS BEFORE -- EVEN WHEN THE COLOMBIANS WERE MOVING HUGE AMOUNTS OF COCAINE INTO THE UNITED STATES IN THE EIGHTIES, COCAINE WAS VERY EXPENSIVE.

IT WAS USUALLY VERY CUT AND DILUTED.

WE'VE NEVER HAD A PERIOD LIKE WE HAVE TODAY ON THE STREETS WHERE THE DRUGS ARE SO DEADLY, SO PREVALENT, AND SO CHEAP.

AND AGAIN, WE'VE HAD A LONG HISTORY OF ALARMIST AND SENSATIONALIZED REPORTING ON DRUGS GOING BACK TO THE THIRTIES, AND I'M NOT WANTING TO BE PART OF THAT HISTORY, THAT TRADITION, BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT.

THIS IS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED, AND I THINK IT'S FASCINATING, IS ALL THE MYTHOLOGY THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN CREATED IN THE THIRTIES THROUGH THE FIFTIES AND INTO THE SEVENTIES, WHATEVER, ABOUT THE DRUGS ON THE STREET, YOU KNOW, THAT ONE HIT WILL KILL YOU, OR ONE HIT WILL TURN YOU INTO A RAVING MANIAC, ALL THOSE MYTHS ARE NOW REALITY.

AND THE DATA IS VERY, VERY CLEAR.

THIS IS NOT MYTHOLOGY, THIS IS NOT SENSATIONALISM, THIS IS FACT.

Laura: I'D LIKE TO TOUCH ON COVID A LITTLE BIT AND THE RISE OF OVERDOSE DEATHS, WHICH WE'VE ALL BEEN HEARING ABOUT.

IT'S COMPLEX, YOU WRITE, BUT YOU ADD THAT YOU SUSPECT 2021 IS PART OF A LONG UNPLANNED EXPERIMENT IN DECRIMINALIZATION OF ONE OF THE MOST DEVASTATING STREET DRUGS WE'VE EVER KNOWN, AND THAT THOSE ADDICTED TO THEM ARE REMAINING ON THE STREETS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS A LITTLE?

Sam: I THINK THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, THAT OUR THINKING ON WHAT TO DO ABOUT DRUG ADDICTION AND THE BALANCE BETWEEN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND TREATMENT AND PREVENTION AND ALL THAT HAS BEEN FORMED IN ANOTHER ERA OF DRUGS.

THE DRUGS HAVE CHANGED, OUR THINKING HASN'T.

SO THE IDEA IS THAT WE SHOULD DECRIMINALIZE THESE SMALL QUANTITIES OF DRUGS AND SMALL LOW-LEVEL FELONIES AND WHATEVER THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DRUGS AND THAT KIND OF THING, AND I THINK IN ANOTHER ERA THAT MIGHT HAVE WORKED.

BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT THAT LEADS PEOPLE TO BE ON THE STREET LONGER AND NOT BE IN JAIL, THAT IS NOT COMPASSION.

THAT IS THE OPPOSITE.

THOSE PEOPLE WILL DIE.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A LONG-TERM STREET FENTANYL USER.

THEY ALL DIE.

NOBODY -- THAT'S WHAT'S FUELING OUR AMAZING NUMBERS EVERY MONTH AND EVERY YEAR NOW.

AND THE IDEA OF NO BAIL, YOU KNOW.

WELL, IT'S A VERY JUST THING WHEN APPLIED TO CERTAIN CASES.

I BELIEVE THAT, TOO.

I'VE BEEN A CRIME REPORTER A LONG TIME.

HOWEVER, WHEN YOU ARREST SOMEBODY FOR A DRUG CASE, A MINOR DRUG CASE THAT IS REALLY A SYMPTOM OF A BIG, VERY DEEP DRUG PROBLEM, PARTICULARLY CONSIDERING ALL THE DRUGS ON THE STREET, YOU GIVE THAT PERSON -- YOU TAKE THAT PERSON TO JAIL, THAT PERSON GETS KICKED RIGHT BACK OUT BECAUSE THERE'S NO BAIL APPLIED, AND THAT PERSON IS RIGHT BACK IN THAT SAME WORLD THAT IS DEVASTATING AND LIFE-THREATENING AT EVERY MOMENT, REALLY.

SO TO ME, THESE DRUGS ARE CALLING ON US TO QUESTION A WHOLE LOT.

THEY'RE CALLING ON US TO QUESTION, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW WE RUN JAIL.

I THINK RIGHT NOW WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT JAIL HAS BEEN AN ANCHOR AROUND OUR NECK, THE WAY IT'S TRADITIONALLY BEEN RUN FOR DECADES.

IT IS A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE PROBLEM.

YOU GO IN CRIMINALLY MINDED, MENTALLY ILL OR ADDICTED, AND YOU COME OUT WORSE.

IT REALLY CREATES PROBLEMS FOR US RATHER THAN SOLUTIONS.

BUT IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, THEY'RE RETHINKING THAT.

SO IN THE BOOK "THE LEAST OF US," I'VE GOT THREE CHAPTERS ON A VERY RED COUNTY CHANGING THE WAY THEY DO JAIL BECAUSE THEY REALIZE IT'S NOT WORKING.

AND SO PEOPLE USE JAIL -- THERE'S PODS WHERE YOU ENTER, YOU SIGN UP, AND IT'S ALL ABOUT RECOVERY.

YOU'RE MAKING YOUR BED AT 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

NO TV; YOU'RE NOT WATCHING JUDGE JUDY AND PLAYING POKER.

YOU ARE WORKING ON YOUR RECOVERY.

IT'S NOT A PANACEA.

THERE IS NO PANACEA HERE.

BUT IT IS A WAY OF SAYING, WE'RE RETHINKING ALL THESE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO DO AND TAKING SMALL STEPS, ALL OF WHICH TOGETHER MAY AMOUNT TO A REALLY SIGNIFICANT DENT IN THIS PROBLEM, NOT A 100% SOLUTION.

Laura: WELL, THANK YOU.

EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS BOOK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Sam: THANK YOU, LAURA.

VERY KIND OF YOU.

Gene: STATE PUBLIC REGULATION COMMISSIONERS HAVE STRUCK DOWN THE POTENTIAL MERGER BETWEEN PNM AND EAST COAST UTILITY PROVIDER AVANGRID.

THOSE COMMISSIONERS WERE EXPECTED TO VOTE ON WHETHER OR NOT TO HEAR ORAL ARGUMENTS IN THE MERGER CASE, BUT THEY WENT A STEP FURTHER.

WE'LL GET TO ALL THE REASONS WHY, BUT BROADLY, PRC CHAIRMAN STEPHEN FISCHMANN SAID THE TWO COMPANIES HAVE "A DEMONSTRATED RECORD OF BAD BEHAVIOR."

THAT INCLUDES BILLING ERRORS IN THE NORTHEAST YEARS AGO.

SENATOR GRIEGO, WAS THIS DOOMED FROM THE START GIVEN THAT HISTORY?

I MEAN, THESE QUOTES FROM THESE PRC FOLKS ARE REALLY, REALLY HARD.

Sen. Griego: I DON'T THINK IT WAS DOOMED FROM THE START BECAUSE I ACTUALLY THOUGHT THEY HAD A TON OF MOMENTUM.

IT BECAME UNFORTUNATELY VERY TRANSACTIONAL.

I MEAN, I THINK BOTH AVANGRID AND IBERDROLA WERE SORT OF JUST TRYING TO HEAP ROUND AFTER ROUND OF ADDITIONAL CONCESSIONS TO THE 23, 24 GROUPS INVOLVED, AND THEY GOT 23 OF THE 24 TO STAND DOWN, OR AT LEAST SUPPORT IT, BUT THE ONE GROUP THAT STAYED IN THERE, NEW ENERGY ECONOMY, BASICALLY THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE, BUT ALSO RELENTLESS IN JUST MAKING SURE THAT WE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE, AND I THINK THAT THE MORE INFORMATION THAT CAME OUT ABOUT BOTH COMPANIES, THE MORE QUESTIONABLE IT BECAME.

I WAS FRANKLY SHOCKED IT WAS A UNANIMOUS VOTE TO REJECT THE MERGER.

I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE A 2-3 OR A 4-1, BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS COMING DOWN.

SO I ACTUALLY THINK AS TIME WENT ON, GENE, IT GOT WORSE FOR THE COMPANIES.

AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS JUST AROUND SERVICE OR SOME OF THE PRESS AROUND THE CONTROVERSIES WITH IBERDROLA IN SPAIN, IT WAS ALSO THIS IDEA OF WHO IS REALLY GOING TO BENEFIT.

AND I THINK IF YOU'RE A PNM -- ANYBODY ON THE CALL OR LISTENING, IF YOU'RE A PNM SHAREHOLDER, IT WAS GREAT FOR YOU BECAUSE THEY GOT A PREMIUM FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS.

IF YOU HAPPENED TO BE RELATED TO ANYBODY OR PART OF THE PNM MANAGEMENT, IT WAS ALSO A BOON FOR THEM.

BUT FOR RATEPAYERS AND FOR PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANT TO DEVELOP REALLY COMMUNITY-BASED, WHETHER IT'S COMMUNITY SOLAR OR MUNICIPALITIES BEING ABLE TO HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER THEIR ENERGY USE AND CONSUMPTION, IT WAS NOT GREAT FOR THEM, BECAUSE THIS WOULD HAVE ESSENTIALLY CONSOLIDATED ON STEROIDS A BIG NOT JUST NATIONAL, BUT MULTI-NATIONAL COMPANY USING THIS PARTICULAR DEAL TO BROADEN THE MODEL OF A REALLY POWERFUL PRIVATELY OWNED, NOT SHAREHOLDER OWNED, NECESSARILY, COMPANY.

SO ANYWAY, I THINK, PERSONALLY, I THINK IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO TAKE A DIFFERENT LOOK AT WHAT WE WANT TO DO.

IF WE WANT A RENEWABLE ECONOMY, IS THERE ANOTHER WAY TO GET THERE?

AND WITH ALL THE MONEY WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS SHOW, COULD WE INVEST SOME OF THAT IN BUILDING OUR OWN LOCAL COMMUNITY-BASED CAPACITY TO REALLY TRANSITION TO THIS SUSTAINABLE POST-FOSSIL FUEL ECONOMY.

AND I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE, BECAUSE TEN PERCENT OF THE ENERGY IN THIS COUNTRY IS COMMUNITY-BASED POWER COMPANIES.

IT'S NOT INVESTOR OWNED.

IT'S NOT THE CURRENT MODEL THAT WE'RE SO USED TO AT PNM.

Gene: YOU MAKE A GREAT POINT, SENATOR, A VERY GREAT POINT.

WE'RE ALMOST ARGUING IN A 1990s OR 2000s KIND OF WAY, AND ENERGY IS GOING A WHOLE OTHER DIRECTION HERE.

TOM, OTHER CONCERNS ABOUT AVANGRID EXPRESSED BY THE PRC EXAMINER INCLUDED THE POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE ARGUMENT ERIC MENTIONED, INCREASED RATES, $60 MILLION IN FINES ISSUED BY STATE REGULATORS IN NEW ENGLAND, PARTICULARLY MAINE.

PRETTY SERIOUS CONCERNS.

AND CYNTHIA HALL, ONE OF THE REGULATORS, SHE HAD A QUOTE.

"THERE ARE A LOT OF RISKS THAT ARE HARD TO FULLY QUANTIFY, BUT THERE ARE STRONG RED FLAGS FLYING IN OUR FACE."

THAT'S TOUGH STUFF.

Tom: YES, IT IS.

I THINK SENATOR GRIEGO BROUGHT UP AND RAISED A NUMBER OF SOLID POINTS AS FAR AS IF AVANGRID AND PNM DECIDE TO TAKE ANOTHER BITE AT THE APPLE, SO TO SPEAK, THINGS THAT THEY SHOULD CONSIDER.

I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE PRETTY DIFFICULT SEEING THAT IT WAS A UNANIMOUS NO.

I MEAN, THAT WAS REALLY SURPRISING TO ME.

I THINK ONE OF THE AREAS WHERE I THINK THERE WAS A MISSTEP WAS IN THE MESSAGING, BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, $65 MILLION IN RATE CREDITS, $15 MILLION TO LOW INCOME ENERGY, $2 MILLION TO HELP IMPROVE ACCESS TO ELECTRICITY.

THOSE ARE ALL BIG NUMBERS.

AND WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT HALF OF THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO, THAT HALF OF THE RESIDENTS RECEIVE SOME KIND OF FEDERAL AID, THAT MESSAGING -- YOU JUST CAN'T COMPREHEND ALL THAT MONEY AND WHAT THAT BENEFIT IS GOING TO BE.

SO I THINK THAT THERE WAS A MISSTEP IN MESSAGING OF REALLY MAKING THAT CONNECTION WITH NEW MEXICO CONSUMERS, ALTHOUGH THEIR TARGET AUDIENCE WAS CLEARLY, BASED ON ALL THE FULL-PAGE ADS, ALL THE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR, IT WAS TO RALLY BUSINESS TO HELP INFLUENCE AND GET THE PRC TO COME ALONGSIDE AND SAY, YES, THIS IS A GOOD DEAL.

SO I THINK THAT THAT WAS A STRATEGIC MISSTEP, WAS REALLY KIND OF CREATING THAT MESSAGING THAT BROUGHT IN ALL NEW MEXICO RESIDENTS.

INSTEAD, YOU JUST HAD DOLLAR SIGNS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE STATE ARE GOING, YEAH, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY AND I'M NEVER GOING TO SEE ANY OF IT, OR REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW IT WOULD BE APPLIED.

Gene: THAT'S A FAIR POINT, I HAVE TO SAY.

GOOD STUFF THERE, TOM.

SENATOR SNYDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL HECTOR BALDARES HAD BEEN A VOCAL FIGURE SUPPORTING THE MERITS OF THIS MERGER, AS YOU KNOW.

THAT'S DESPITE HIM FACING ETHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS INVOLVEMENT WITH CERTAIN PLAYERS IN THE DEAL.

AND AS YOU KNOW, HE WAS CLEARED OF THOSE ETHICS COMPLAINTS.

BUT HOW DOES IT SIT FOR YOU FOR HIM TO BE SO OUT FRONT AND CENTER ON THIS ISSUE?

Sen. Snyder: IN MANY WAYS, I THINK HE'S DOING HIS JOB.

HAD THERE NOT BEEN THE CONSIDERATION, PRIOR CONSIDERATION ABOUT HIS FRIEND BEING THEIR ATTORNEY, THAT IS WHAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS SUPPOSED TO BE DOING IN SOME AREAS OF HIS RESPONSIBILITIES.

SO I THINK THAT THAT IS TRUE.

I CAN'T IMAGINE AGENT BALDERAS HIDING HIS LIGHT BEHIND A BUSH.

I THINK HE'S SMART, HE'S TALENTED, AND FELT COMPELLED TO MAKE HIS STATEMENT ABOUT WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS BEST FOR THE CITIZENS OF NEW MEXICO.

SO IN THAT SENSE, YOU KNOW, TO ME IT WAS JUST HIM DOING HIS JOB AND MAYBE HIS PERSONAL FEELING GOT IN A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THE THING I FIND MOST INTERESTING IS -- AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS JUST THE DOLLARS OR THE INCREASED BENEFIT PACKAGE OR CONCESSIONS -- IS ALL THE GROUPS EXCEPT NEW ENERGY ECONOMY, WHO HAD BEEN OPPOSING THIS MERGER, SUDDENLY WERE SUPPORTING IT.

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHAT DO THEY KNOW THAT WAS NOT PRESENTED?

I DIDN'T SEE ANY ARTICLES ABOUT THAT, REALLY.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHY.

BUT IT SAYS TO ME THERE WAS SOMETHING BESIDES THE MONEY THAT WAS PART OF THEIR CONSIDERATION.

I DO AGREE WITH TOM, EVERYTHING WAS GEARED, UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE ADVERTISING INFORMATION TOWARDS THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY.

WELL, THAT RUBBED SOME PEOPLE, CITIZENS IN OUR STATE, THE WRONG WAY.

I DIDN'T FEEL LIKE PNM AND AVANGRID REALLY SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE, THEY JUST -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND SO-AND-SO CEO AND DA-DA, DA-DA, DA-DA, WELL, I KNOW ALL THOSE PEOPLE, AND YEAH, THEY'RE WONDERFUL.

THEY'RE GOING TO WANT THE BUSINESS DEAL.

BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE THE MESSAGE WAS GOOD AND OUT TO THE PEOPLE.

Gene: I'M GOING TO HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU, SENATOR.

YOU THINK ABOUT THE TV CAMPAIGN WITH THE PEOPLE HOLDING UP THE SIGNS, IT WAS PRETTY WEAK TEA WHEN IT REALLY COMES TO TRYING TO MOVE HEARTS AND MINDS.

LET ME GO TO SENATOR GRIEGO HERE REAL QUICK, IF I COULD, AND I'LL COME BACK TO YOU SENATOR SNYDER.

WE MADE CHANGES TO THE PRC SEVERAL YEARS AGO TO TRY AND UP THE PROFESSIONAL EXPERTISE OF COMMISSIONERS, AS YOU KNOW.

YOU WERE PART OF THOSE DISCUSSIONS RIGHT HERE AT THIS TABLE YEARS AGO.

TOUGH QUESTION: DO THOSE CHANGES PAY OFF IN THIS SITUATION GIVEN THE OUTCOME?

Tom: I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS A RED HERRING.

LOOK, THE FOLKS -- I SERVED WITH STEVE FISCHMANN.

HE WAS A FORMER CEO.

HE'S A GUY WHO WAS A CEO OF A PRETTY GOOD-SIZED CORPORATION.

JOE MAESTAS, COMMISSIONER MAESTAS, IS ONE OF THE SMARTEST PEOPLE IN PUBLIC.

HE'S AN ENGINEER, COMPARED A LOT TO MARTIN HEINRICH, WHO HAS A SOLID SORT OF TECHNICAL CREDENTIALS.

SO I THINK THEY'RE PRETTY KNOWLEDGEABLE.

NOT ALL OF THEM ARE EXPERTS IN ENERGY POLICIES, CERTAINLY.

I'M MORE CONCERNED, GENE, WITH LOOKING FORWARD AND THIS DECISION, REALLY, OF THE INDUSTRY, INCLUDING PNM, TO SORT OF MAKE THE PRC NON-ELECTED.

WE TALKED ABOUT THAT ON A PREVIOUS SHOW.

AND I THINK IT MAY PLAY OUT.

ONE SCENARIO IS IF THE SUPREME COURT DOESN'T APPROVE THIS, THAT THEY MAY ACTUALLY WAIT, AND THE AMOUNT OF TIME IT MAY TAKE TO GET TO THE COURTS THAT THIS NEW COMMISSION, WHICH WILL BE APPOINTED BY WHOEVER THE GOVERNOR IS, EITHER GOVERNOR LUJAN-GRISHAM OR IF THERE'S A NEW GOVERNOR WILL GET TO APPOINT THESE FOLKS, AND REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS, I THINK THEY'RE LIKELY TO BE MUCH MORE PRO MERGER.

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AVANGRID AND IBERDROLA ARE SORT OF BETTING ON.

THAT'S ONE SCENARIO THAT COULD PLAY OUT.

I THINK HAVING COMMISSIONERS WHO ARE ELECTED BY THE CITIZENS, WHO ABSOLUTELY SHOULD HAVE SOME MINIMAL QUALIFICATIONS.

BUT I DON'T THINK, WHETHER DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN, SHOULD BE APPOINTING FOLKS WHO THEN WILL MAKE -- THIS IS GOING TO BE FIRST HUGE DECISION THAT THIS NON-ELECTED PRC COULD MAKE, AND IT COULD VERY MUCH GO AGAINST, I THINK, PUBLIC OPINION ON IT.

I HAVEN'T SEEN A LOT OF POLLING, BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS, MOST FOLKS, TO THE EARLIER POINT, A, THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS IS A BIG KIND OF MULTI-LATERAL OR MULTI-NATIONAL DEAL -- PNM IS NOT INCREDIBLY POPULAR WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

Gene: THAT'S RIGHT.

AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, GUYS, A $4.3 BILLION ALL CASH DEAL DOES NOT COME ALONG THAT OFTEN IN THIS WORLD.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC.

WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

WE'VE BEEN FOLLOWING THIS FOR MONTHS NOW, WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO SO.

WE'RE BACK IN A FEW MINUTES TO TALK ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S PLAN TO ATTRACT AND RETAIN OUR TEACHERS.

Zoe: IT'S REALLY, REALLY COMMON NOT TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE COYOTES OR FOXES IN NOB HILL BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE THEM, AND THAT'S LARGELY BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TOO MUCH TO DO WITH US MOST OF THE TIME, WHICH IS A GOOD THING, PROBABLY, FOR US AND FOR THEM.

Gene: WHILE THE LEGISLATURE HAS ITS HANDS FULL WITH REDISTRICTING DURING THE ONGOING SPECIAL SESSION, GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN-GRISHAM IS LOOKING AHEAD TO NEXT YEAR.

ON THE FIRST OF THE MONTH, THE GOVERNOR RELEASED A PROPOSAL TO GIVE PUBLIC EDUCATORS AROUND THE STATE A 7% PAY BUMP.

THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE SAYS NEW MEXICO TEACHERS DESERVE BETTER COMPENSATION, AND THE STATE IS ALSO TRYING TO FILL A LARGE NUMBER OF VACANCIES LEFT THROUGH THE PANDEMIC, AS YOU KNOW.

SENATOR SNYDER, IS IT ABOUT MONEY?

IS THAT ENOUGH TO DRAW MORE TEACHERS BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE, OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE.

Sen. Snyder: WELL, I THINK IT'S MORE THAN THAT, BUT I CERTAINLY THINK THAT IS A CONSIDERATION THAT TEACHERS LOOK AT WHEN THEY'RE COMING INTO OUR STATE, OR YOUNG PEOPLE -- WE LOSE SO MANY TO OUT OF STATE.

MAYBE OUR YOUNG TEACHERS ARE GOING TO OUR NEIGHBORS BECAUSE THEY ALL, AT THIS MOMENT, HAVE HIGHER SALARIES, BEGINNING SALARIES.

BUT IT'S NOT, TO ME, IT'S NOT THE ONLY ISSUE.

I'M SORRY, WE HAVE HAD SOME OF THE WORST LEADERS FOR THE STATE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT, THE WORST LEADERS IN ALBUQUERQUE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS ALL MY OPINION, BUT I LOOK AT IT AND I WATCH IT CLOSELY, AND I'M GOING, WHY?

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE A TEACHER?

SOMETIMES IMPACTING YOUNG PEOPLE'S LIVES GETS OLD.

AND I ALSO THINK, AND THIS WILL PROBABLY GET YOU CALLS ABOUT ME, IS I THINK THAT OUR TEACHERS UNIONS HAVE A GREATER CONTROL FOR OUR LEGISLATURE THAN THEY DESERVE.

AND I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING, AND I MENTIONED THIS EARLIER, IF WE COULD GET A PANEL OF RECENTLY RETIRED TEACHERS THAT COULDN'T BE PENALIZED FOR ANYTHING THEY SAY, AND JUST GET THE REAL STORY, IS KIND OF THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT.

BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE EVERYBODY WE HEAR FROM HAS GOT A VESTED INTEREST OF SOME KIND ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

Gene: THAT'S A GOOD POINT THERE.

TOM, TEACHERS HAVE HAD TO ENDURE A WHOLE LOT DURING THE PANDEMIC.

LEARNING, TEACHING REMOTELY, RISKING INFECTION.

I'VE GOT TO ASK, IS THIS JUST AN OBVIOUS MOVE FOR THE GOVERNOR GIVEN THE BUDGET SURPLUS?

SHOULDN'T TEACHERS GET A LITTLE SOMETHING OUT OF THIS?

I MEAN, THEY JUST SLOGGED THROUGH AN AMAZING 18 MONTHS.

Tom: YEAH, IT'S GOOD ON A COUPLE OF LEVELS.

AND PERSONALLY, I'M REALLY GLAD TO SEE THIS.

ON ONE LEVEL, YES, I THINK YOU NEED TO PROVIDE AN INCENTIVE TO HAVE TEACHERS REMAIN ENGAGED DURING THIS COVID TIMEFRAME, BUT TWO, I MEAN, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE LAST TIME THAT TEACHER PAY WAS ACTUALLY ADDRESSED, IT WAS SENATE BILL 212, AND I HAD DARK HAIR.

SO THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

AND IT SET UP A THREE-TIER SYSTEM, BUT REALLY, THAT THREE-TIER SYSTEM HAS JUST BEEN IGNORED FOR DECADES.

AND SO I AM THRILLED PERSONALLY FOR TEACHERS AND THE TEACHING PROFESSION.

I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING SENATOR SNYDER SAID ABOUT LEADERSHIP, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO SUPPORTING TEACHERS IN THE CLASSROOM, I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL IN FAVOR OF, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT GOVERNOR LUJAN-GRISHAM ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHES WITH THIS KIND OF PROPOSAL OUT OF THE PED.

Gene: ERIC, THAT RANGE TOM MENTIONED ABOUT THOSE THREE TIERS, IT'S ABOUT $40,000 TO $60,000 BASED ON EXPERIENCE, AND THE 7% INCREASE WOULD ONLY EFFECT TEACHERS WHO DIDN'T ALREADY RECEIVE A BUMP FROM THE TIER INCREASES.

SO IT'S REALLY NOT AN ACROSS-THE-BOARD KIND OF THING.

BUT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE BUDGET WRITING COMMITTEE, DEMOCRAT GEORGE MUNOZ, SAYS THIS SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM FOR LAWMAKERS IN THE 2022 SESSION, SAYING WE HAVE THE MONEY.

IS HE RIGHT?

Sen. Griego: YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T AGREE WITH SENATOR MUNOZ ON VERY MANY THINGS, BUT I'VE GOT TO SAY THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT MONEY, SURPLUS MONEY ANYWHERE, IT OUGHT TO BE IN HUMAN -- I ALWAYS SAY THIS ON THE SHOW -- HUMAN CAPITAL, INVESTING IN OUR KIDS.

AND I REALLY DO THINK THAT'S WHAT TEACHERS ARE.

THEY'RE WORKING FOLKS, LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE, AND MOST OF THEM, YOU KNOW -- AND I'M BIASED.

I HAPPEN TO BE MARRIED TO AN EDUCATOR WHO WAS FORMERLY IN APS, NOW WORKS FOR THE STATE.

BUT THEY DO IT BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR CHOSEN PROFESSION.

SO THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT REGARDLESS OF MONEY.

BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE A VOW OF POVERTY TO BE A TEACHER, ESPECIALLY A NEW TEACHER.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME OUT IN THE PRESS AROUND THIS IS HOW MUCH OUR TEACHING POPULATION IS AGING, RIGHT.

THERE JUST ISN'T THIS NEW SORT OF COHORT OF YOUNGER TEACHERS.

IT'S SMALLER AND SMALLER.

SO IF YOU WANT TO GET PEOPLE IN COLLEGE THINKING ABOUT THIS, RATHER THAN SAYING, WELL, I LOVE TEACHING AND I'M WILLING TO WORK FOR $30,000 OR $35,000 A YEAR, $40,000 NOW, IF THERE'S ACTUALLY A POSSIBILITY THAT I COULD ACTUALLY SUPPORT A FAMILY, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE A TWO TEACHER FAMILY -- I HAVE FRIENDS WHO ARE A TWO TEACHER FAMILY, AND HOW THEY MAKE IT IN THIS ECONOMY, I'M ALWAYS SHOCKED AND SUPER RESPECTFUL OF MY FRIENDS.

THERE'S A LOT OF COUPLES WHO ARE IN TEACHING, RIGHT.

THEY MET IN EDUCATION AND THEY'RE PASSIONATE ABOUT TEACHING.

BUT THEY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET BY ON $80,000 A YEAR.

IN A CITY LIKE SANTA FE, THAT'S VERY, VERY HARD.

EVEN HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

SO I THINK IT'S GREAT.

I AGREE WITH TOM, I THINK IF YOU'RE GOING TO PUT YOUR MONEY ANYWHERE, THIS IS A PLACE TO PUT IT.

AND I HOPE IT WILL YIELD SOME REAL RESULTS AS WE LOOK BACK, IF IT DOES HAPPEN IN A FEW YEARS, THAT WE REALLY START SEEING SOME SMALLER CLASS SIZES AND THE THINGS THAT WE ALL WANT TO SEE.

Gene: SENATOR SNYDER, I GOT A NOTE FROM A FRIEND THAT'S A PRINCIPAL HERE IN APS AND SHE MADE A GOOD POINT.

SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE'S GOING TO BE PRINCIPALS UPSIDE-DOWN HERE VERY QUICKLY, MEANING TEACHERS ARE ACTUALLY SNEAKING UP AND PRINCIPALS ARE SORT OF STAYING THE SAME.

AND OTHER STATE EMPLOYEES ARE DUE FOR A RAISE, AS WELL, AS WE KNOW.

SHOULD THOSE OTHER EMPLOYEES GET A BUMP, AS WELL, AT THE SAME EXACT TIME, OR SHOULD WE JUST KIND OF CHOP AT THIS ONE ASPECT AT THIS TIME?

Sen. Snyder: NO, I THINK IF WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING WITH ALL THIS KIND OF MONEY, I GO ALONG WITH SENATOR GRIEGO, IT SHOULD BE IN HUMAN RESOURCES, WITH ONE CAVEAT.

WE'VE GOT TO HAVE CAPITAL PROJECTS.

WE'VE GOT TO HAVE ROADS.

DON'T FORGET, OUR SCHOOL BUILDINGS ARE FALLING APART, TOO, IN MANY PLACES.

WHEN I WAS IN THE SENATE, I HAD SEVERAL SCHOOLS, BUT I HAD TWO MIDDLE SCHOOLS, AND ONE OF THEM EVERY YEAR WOULD BRING IN DECEMBER AND PRESENT A BILL TO ME.

AND THEN THEY'D COME TO SANTA FE TO VISIT.

AND I ASKED THEM ONE YEAR, IF YOU COULD HAVE ANYTHING, WHAT WOULD YOU WANT?

AND I SAID, NOT PIZZA EVERY DAY FOR LUNCH.

AND THEY SAID, WE'D LIKE TO BE ABLE TO WASH OUR HANDS IN OUR ROOM.

THEY WERE IN THE PORTABLE BUILDINGS.

SO I SAID, YOU FIND OUT WHAT IT WILL COST, GET THE REAL NUMBERS, AND I WILL GIVE YOU THAT MONEY IN CAPITAL OUTLAY.

WELL, I DID.

GUESS WHAT?

I GOT BOMBARDED BY APS LOBBYISTS AND LEADERS SAYING, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I LOOKED AT THEM AND SAID, YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING, I CAN DO IT.

BUT ANYWAY, THESE ARE LITTLE KIDS, THEY NEED TO WASH THEIR HANDS.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF PORTABLE BUILDINGS, AND THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF CAPITAL OUTLAY.

Gene: LET ME SNEAK TOM IN HERE, WE'RE JUST A LITTLE TIGHT ON TIME.

I APPRECIATE THAT ANECDOTE, BECAUSE THAT DOES MAKE THE POINT.

TOM, BESIDES A PAY INCREASE, WHAT OTHER INCENTIVES CAN THE STATE OR EVEN A LOCAL DISTRICT PROVIDE TO HELP RECRUIT QUALIFIED TEACHERS?

WHAT'S OUT THERE TO OFFSET STAFFING LOSSES?

Tom: WELL, THERE'S A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT DISTRICTS COULD PROVIDE.

A LOT OF IT GOES TO COMMUNITY PARTNERSHIPS.

I WOULD JUST BRIEFLY LIKE TO KIND OF TOUCH ON THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF INCREASING PAY, WHICH IS DEFINITELY DUE, AND THAT UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE IS THAT YOU'RE SEEING THE POTENTIAL OF GOVERNMENT JOBS SEEING A HUGE INCREASE IN SALARY, WHICH IS GREAT, BUT THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE IS THE IMPACT IT HAS ON THE WORKFORCE AND FOR THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO TRY TO BE COMPETITIVE.

IN THE PAST, IT WAS JUST THE OPPOSITE, RIGHT, BUT NOW YOU HAVE THAT POTENTIAL THAT THE GOVERNMENT JOBS COULD BE REALLY KIND OF OUTPACING OR OUTPRICING SOME OF THOSE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

I JUST THINK THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A BALANCE, AND I HOPE -- Gene: DO WE HAVE THAT SITUATION NOW, TOM?

BECAUSE ALL THE INFORMATION I'M SEEING IS THAT TEACHERS ARE GOING TO THE PRIVATE SIDE -- OR I'M SORRY, GOVERNMENT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THE PRIVATE SIDE NOW BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET A COMPETITIVE SALARY IN GOVERNMENT.

Tom: WELL, YEAH, I THINK RESEARCH WILL SUPPORT WHICHEVER ARGUMENT YOU WANT TO MAKE.

I'M JUST SEEING THAT RIGHT NOW, GOVERNMENT IS SEEING THE MOST INFLUX OF CASH THAN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, AND MAYBE THERE'S SOME CATCH-UP THERE, BUT I THINK IT'S JUST SOMETHING TO KEEP AN EYE ON.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S AN EQUAL BALANCE BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATE SECTOR, THAT ONE DOESN'T GET TOO FAR AHEAD OF THE OTHER.

Gene: GOOD POINT THERE.

THANKS AGAIN TO OUR LINE PANEL, AS ALWAYS, THIS WEEK.

BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANY OF THE TOPICS THESE GUYS COVERED OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES.

Laura: I'M LAURA PASKUS.

ON THIS MONTH'S "OUR LAND," WE TALK ABOUT THE CREATURES WE INHABIT OUR CITIES WITH.

I SPOKE WITH UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO GRADUATE STUDENT ZOE ROSSMAN.

SHE'S AN URBAN WILDLIFE ECOLOGIST AND SHE SHARES SOME OF HER RESEARCH.

WE TALK ABOUT WHO IS LIVING HERE AND WHY THEY MATTER.

AND WE'RE REALLY HAPPY THAT IN THIS SHOW, WE FEATURE VIDEO AND IMAGES FROM AROUND NEW MEXICO SHARED BY OUR FRIENDS AND VIEWERS.

Laura: WELCOME, ZOE.

YOU'RE A GRADUATE STUDENT IN THE BIOLOGY DEPARTMENT AT UNM?

Zoe: YES, I AM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

Laura: THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

SO YOU STUDY CARNIVORES, OR URBAN WILDLIFE.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOUR RESEARCH IS ABOUT.

Zoe: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

SO I'M AN URBAN WILDLIFE ECOLOGIST.

A LOT OF MY PREVIOUS WORK WAS ACTUALLY UP IN CHICAGO, BUT LATELY I'VE MOVED BACK TO FOCUS ON ALBUQUERQUE.

BASICALLY, MY RESEARCH IS ABOUT HOW AND WHY THE URBAN MAMMALS THAT WE SEE IN OUR CITY ARE EXISTING HERE AND DOING SO WELL HERE.

AND WE KNOW THAT THERE'S A LOT OF URBAN WILDLIFE ALL ACROSS THE CITY, WHICH I'M SURE WE'LL GET INTO, BUT WE DON'T REALLY HAVE MANY ANSWERS ABOUT WHERE THOSE ANIMALS ARE ACTUALLY OCCURRING OR WHY THEY ARE WHERE THEY ARE.

Laura: AS HUMANS, I FEEL LIKE WE OFTEN THINK OF OURSELVES AS SEPARATE FROM NATURE.

LIKE, I LIVE HERE, YOU ANIMALS LIVE OVER THERE.

BUT IN ALBUQUERQUE, WHICH IS CRAZY, BECAUSE WE'RE THE LARGEST CITY IN NEW MEXICO, THERE IS WILDLIFE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

LIKE FOR INSTANCE, I WAS SUPER SURPRISED TO HEAR THAT THERE ARE FOXES IN NOB HILL.

Zoe: OH, YEAH.

Laura: CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT'S OUT THERE AND WHAT YOU HEAR FROM PEOPLE IS OUT THERE?

Zoe: YES, OF COURSE.

AND FIRST, I THINK THAT'S AN EXCELLENT POINT, BECAUSE THE IDEA THAT CITIES ARE SEPARATE FROM NATURE AND THAT ONLY ANIMALS THAT WE'VE BROUGHT IN OR CULTIVATED ARE ALLOWED TO BE HERE OR SHOULD BE HERE IS JUST SO BIZARRE, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN URBAN WILDLIFE FOR AS LONG AS THERE'S BEEN URBAN, YOU KNOW, FOR AS LONG AS THERE HAVE BEEN CITIES.

AND WE HAD URBAN ANIMALS IN AZTEC CITIES AND IN CHACO CANYON LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS AGO, RIGHT, AND SO THIS IS NOT NEW BY ANY MEANS TO THIS AREA.

BUT AS FAR AS WHAT'S HERE, YEAH, THERE'S FOXES IN NOB HILL.

I KNOW YOU MENTIONED THAT TO ME.

I HAD A FRIEND A FEW MONTHS BACK WHO SAW ONE IN NOB HILL, ALSO.

I RAN INTO A WOMAN WHOSE FRIEND HAD A FAMILY OF GRAY FOXES ON THEIR RING CAMERA ON LIKE EUBANK AND JUAN TABO.

DEFINITELY FOXES.

COYOTES.

RACCOONS AND SKUNKS, WHICH YOU MIGHT EXPECT.

YOU HEAR ABOUT THOSE KIND OF ANIMALS IN CITIES A LOT.

IN THE BOSQUE, WE'VE GOT PORCUPINES AND BEAVERS AND MUSKRAT AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER LITTLE CRITTERS.

LET'S SEE.

MOUNTAIN LIONS AND BEARS OCCASIONALLY WILL COME INTO THE CITY, ALTHOUGH THEY PROBABLY -- WELL, THEY OBVIOUSLY DON'T LIVE HERE ALL THE TIME.

THERE'S NOT REALLY ENOUGH HABITAT TO SUPPORT THEM.

AND YOU DO OCCASIONALLY GET LIKE THE RARE ANIMALS, LIKE A RINGTAIL BEING SIGHTED.

BOBCATS ARE PRETTY COMMON.

SO WE'VE GOT THE WHOLE SPECTRUM.

I KNOW THAT YOU'RE ONE OF THE LUCKY FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE SEEN JAVELINA IN ALBUQUERQUE, WHICH IS REALLY EXCITING, BECAUSE THEIR RANGE IS MOVING NORTH.

I MEAN, I'VE ONLY EVER SEEN THEM SOUTH OF ALBUQUERQUE.

BUT LATELY, I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN THREE OR FOUR SIGHTINGS IN TOWN, WHICH WILL BE REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE IF THAT CONTINUES AND HOW THAT IMPACTS THINGS.

BUT WE HAVE THE WHOLE SPECTRUM.

AND I'M A MAMMALOGIST, SO OF COURSE I'M LIKE FOCUSING ON THESE MEDIUM TO LARGE-SIZED URBAN MAMMALS, BUT OF COURSE WE'VE GOT TONS OF BIRDS AND REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS AND INSECTS ALL THROUGHOUT THE CITY, TOO.

Laura: SO WHAT IS THEIR PRESENCE?

LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE FOXES OR COYOTES OR BOBCATS, WHAT DOES THEIR PRESENCE IN THE CITY SAY ABOUT US AND MAYBE WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THEM?

Zoe: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

SO, YES, NOT ALL ANIMALS DO WELL IN CITIES, AND THERE ARE PLENTY OF ANIMALS THAT HAVE BEEN HARMED BY URBANIZATION, PARTICULARLY LARGE CARNIVORES, SPECIES LIKE WOLVES AND BEARS AND MOUNTAIN LIONS, EVEN, ALTHOUGH WE DO HAVE -- THERE ARE MOUNTAIN LIONS LIVING RIGHT IN THE L.A.

SUBURBS.

BUT THERE ARE PLENTY OF SPECIES THAT COULD NEVER LIVE FULL-TIME IN A CITY, AND I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT DRAWS ME SO MUCH TO THE ANIMALS WHO CAN, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY COOL THAT THERE ARE FUNCTIONING ANIMAL COMMUNITIES ALL AROUND US.

SO AS TO WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THEM, THERE ARE CHARACTERISTICS THAT MAKE CERTAIN URBAN ANIMALS SUCCESSFUL.

SO FOR MAMMALS, IT'S THINGS LIKE HAVING A REALLY GENERAL DIET.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE A COYOTE -- IF YOU'RE A WOLF, YOU HAVE TO EAT MEAT, RIGHT.

YOU CAN'T GO AROUND JUST EATING WHATEVER YOU WANT.

IF YOU'RE A COYOTE, YOU CAN EAT -- SURE, YOU CAN EAT RODENTS, BUT YOU CAN ALSO EAT BERRIES, OR CAT FOOD, OR PEOPLE'S TRASH.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW ALL THE COYOTE SCAT I SEE IS JUST FULL OF PRICKLY PEAR FRUIT.

JUST LIKE CHOCK FULL OF PRICKLY PEAR.

SO THERE ARE THINGS LIKE BEING FLEXIBLE, BEING ABLE TO SHIFT YOUR ACTIVITY PATTERNS.

SO COYOTES, IF YOU GO DOWN TO BOSQUE DEL APACHE OR UP TO VALLES CALDERA, YOU CAN SEE COYOTES OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, AND THAT DOESN'T REALLY HAPPEN IN CITIES.

AND SO THERE ARE SORT OF DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS THAT MAKE THESE URBAN MAMMALS SUCCESSFUL.

IN TERMS OF WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT US, IT'S HARD TO SAY, BECAUSE YOU FIND URBAN MAMMALS IN CITIES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY'RE IN THE BIGGEST METROPOLITAN AREAS IN THE U.S., AND DOWN TO SMALLER CITIES.

OBVIOUSLY I THINK IT'S REALLY COOL THAT WE HAVE THESE URBAN MAMMALS HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, BUT IT'S NOT A SURPRISE, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN HERE FOR A LONG TIME AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GO ANYWHERE.

SO I THINK THE KEY IS REALLY SORT OF LEARNING ABOUT THEM, BECAUSE NOT ALL PEOPLE KNOW, YOU KNOW.

IT'S REALLY, REALLY COMMON NOT TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE COYOTES OR FOXES IN NOB HILL, BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE THEM, AND THAT'S LARGELY BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TOO MUCH TO DO WITH US MOST OF THE TIME, WHICH IS A GOOD THING, PROBABLY, FOR US AND FOR THEM.

BUT I THINK IT'S COOL THAT WE DO HAVE THEM.

Laura: ONE OF THE THINGS, LIKE, IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD IS I SEE COYOTES, AND MY DOG GOT SPRAYED BY A SKUNK IN THE BACKYARD, SO CLEARLY WE HAVE SKUNKS.

I'VE SEEN RACCOONS LIKE PEEKING OUT OF THE DRAINAGE GUTTERS ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD.

AND I'M ALWAYS -- LIKE, I ALWAYS WANT TO FIND THEM.

LIKE, WHERE DO THEY SLEEP?

LIKE, WHERE DO THEY MAKE THEIR HOMES?

Zoe: YES, SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE ANIMAL.

IF YOU TAKE A PORCUPINE, FOR INSTANCE, WHICH I CAN SEE -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SEE PRETTY COMMONLY IF YOU'RE WALKING IN THE BOSQUE AND LOOKING UP, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT THE COTTONWOODS ARE STARTING TO LOSE THEIR LEAVES.

BUT AN ANIMAL LIKE A PORCUPINE, IT NEEDS THAT HABITAT, RIGHT.

THEY SLEEP IN THE COTTONWOODS DURING THE DAY, AND THEY EAT THE VEGETATION THAT'S IN THE BOSQUE AT NIGHT.

BUT IT MIGHT NOT DO SO WELL IF YOU DROPPED IT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOB HILL.

WHEREAS AN ANIMAL LIKE A COYOTE OR A FOX OR A SKUNK OR A RACCOON, THEY CAN OFTEN EITHER EXIST ENTIRELY IN SMALLER AREAS OF HABITAT OR SORT OF PIECE THAT HABITAT TOGETHER, WHETHER IT'S THROUGH, YOU KNOW, DRAINAGE DITCHES OR LITTLE PIECES OF UNDEVELOPED LOTS OR, YOU KNOW, PARKS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO THEY KIND OF FIND THEIR NOOKS AND CRANNIES DURING THE DAYTIME, MOSTLY.

AND THEN AT NIGHT, YOU CAN BE DRIVING IN NOB HILL AND SEE A COUPLE OF COYOTES PLAYING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET, AND THEY'RE LIKE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

SO IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE ANIMAL, FOR SURE.

Laura: ARE THERE THINGS THAT CITIES CAN DO TO MAKE MORE HABITAT FOR PARTICULAR WILDLIFE, OR TO REDUCE CONFLICTS BETWEEN HUMANS AND WILDLIFE, WHETHER THAT'S KEEPING YOUR CHICKEN COOP MORE FORTIFIED OR REDUCING THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR DRIVERS TO HIT WILDLIFE?

Zoe: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

SO I THINK AT THE CITY LEVEL, THERE'S A LOT OF RESEARCH THAT'S SORT OF THIS NEW FIELD OF WILDLIFE INCLUSIVE DESIGN.

SO AS CITIES ARE GROWING AND EXPANDING, OR MAYBE BEING REDESIGNED TO MITIGATE CLIMATE CHANGE THREATS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE FACTORING WILDLIFE AND THEIR NEEDS INTO OUR DESIGN.

BUT A BIG PART OF THAT IS UNDERSTANDING WHAT THEY NEED.

AND SOME OF IT -- YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT THINK, WELL, ADDING GREEN SPACES, THINGS LIKE THAT.

WELL, WHAT KIND OF GREEN SPACES, RIGHT, AND WHAT PLANTS SHOULD BE THERE, AND SHOULD THEY BE NATIVE PLANTS OR NONNATIVE PLANTS.

AND FOR LARGER MAMMALS, THERE'S STILL A LOT THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT MAKES THEM SUCCESSFUL IN CITIES.

AND THAT'S LUCKY FOR ME, BECAUSE THAT'S SORT OF WHAT I'M USING MY RESEARCH TO TRY TO FIND OUT.

BUT I THINK, YEAH, AT THE CITY LEVEL, TRYING TO INCORPORATE WILDLIFE NEEDS INTO FUTURE DESIGN IS A BIG THING.

EDUCATING THE COMMUNITY, I KNOW THAT -- I THINK OUR CITY DOES A GREAT JOB OF THAT.

IF YOU GO ON THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH'S WILDLIFE PAGE, THEY HAVE ALMOST EVERY SPECIES THAT YOU CAN FIND IN ALBUQUERQUE, AND WHAT TO DO AND WHAT'S NORMAL AND WHEN TO BE CONCERNED, THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY FANTASTIC AT A CITY LEVEL.

AS FAR AS THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, DEFINITELY THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, MAKING SURE THAT YOUR PETS ARE SUPERVISED, MAKING SURE THAT YOU'RE NOT -- THE BIG ONE IS NOT FEEDING ANIMALS.

AND THAT'S SUCH A TOUGH ONE, BECAUSE NOBODY -- I MEAN, AT LEAST I HOPE THAT NOBODY IS FEEDING A COYOTE BECAUSE THEY'RE LIKE, OH, I HATE COYOTES SO MUCH, SO I'M GOING TO GO OUT OF MY WAY TO FEED THEM, RIGHT.

AND I THINK A BIG PART OF THAT COMES FROM THIS IDEA THAT CITIES AND NATURE MIGHT BE SEPARATE AND THAT WILDLIFE DON'T BELONG HERE.

SO IF I SEE A COYOTE, IT MUST NEED HELP.

LIKE I BETTER FEED IT, BECAUSE I LIKE COYOTES, I WANT THEM TO BE HERE, I SHOULD FEED THEM.

AND IN REALITY, IT DOES A LOT MORE HARM THAN GOOD, BECAUSE THESE ANIMALS ARE TOTALLY FINE WITHOUT OUR INTERVENTION.

THEY'RE GOING TO FIND ENOUGH, NO PROBLEM.

BUT WHAT FEEDING DOES IS, IT HABITUATES THOSE ANIMALS TO US IN A NEGATIVE WAY.

SO ALTHOUGH THINGS LIKE ANIMAL ATTACKS, WILD ANIMAL ATTACKS ON HUMANS ARE REALLY, REALLY RARE, ALMOST 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME THEY'RE DUE TO HUMANS FEEDING WILD ANIMALS.

Laura: SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT A CITY OF THE FUTURE, LIKE ALBUQUERQUE OF THE FUTURE, ARE THERE, LIKE, BEARS WALKING THROUGH TOWN?

WHAT'S A GOOD WILDLIFE FUTURE FOR OUR CITY?

Zoe: I THINK A GOOD WILDLIFE FUTURE IN ALBUQUERQUE LOOKS A LOT LIKE THE WILDLIFE WE HAVE HERE RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE REALLY FASCINATING THINGS ABOUT URBAN ECOLOGY TO ME -- AND I'M ABSOLUTELY ON BOARD WITH PRESERVING NATURAL HABITAT AND TRYING TO MAINTAIN THE SPECIES THAT WE HAVE, ONES THAT ARE THREATENED OR ENDANGERED.

BUT I THINK THE REALLY COOL THING ABOUT URBAN ECOLOGY IS, YOU GET TO LET SOME OF THAT GO AND YOU GET TO FOCUS ON, LIKE, WE'VE TAKEN A PIECE OF LAND, THE LAND THAT ALBUQUERQUE SITS ON, AND MODIFIED IT BEYOND RECOGNITION, AND THERE ARE STILL ANIMALS THAT MOVED IN AND SAID, YEAH, HEY, THIS IS COOL, THIS IS HOME, I'M GOING TO START MY FAMILY HERE.

AND I THINK THAT'S AMAZING.

AND SO I THINK URBAN WILDLIFE COMMUNITIES, OR MAMMAL COMMUNITIES ARE SO INTERESTING AND DYNAMIC, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, AS LONG AS THERE ARE CITIES, THERE WILL BE URBAN WILDLIFE, AND THERE ARE DEFINITELY THINGS THAT WE CAN DO AT MULTIPLE LEVELS TO ENCOURAGE THAT.

BUT THE COYOTES THAT I SEE IN ALBUQUERQUE LOOK PRETTY HEALTHY.

THE PORCUPINES THAT I'VE SEEN IN ALBUQUERQUE LOOK PRETTY HEALTHY.

PEOPLE'S PHOTOS OF FOXES AND BOBCATS AND RACCOONS AND SKUNKS, THE ANIMALS THAT WE HAVE HERE ARE REALLY SPECIAL, AND I THINK THAT IF WE CAN -- YOU KNOW, AS WE MOVE FORWARD INTO THE FUTURE, YOU KNOW, IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW MUCH OF THAT IS MAINTAINED AND HOW MUCH OF THAT CHANGES.

BUT THE ANIMALS THAT END UP IN CITIES ARE FLEXIBLE AND RESILIENT, AND SO I THINK THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE JUST REALLY FASCINATING.

Laura: AWESOME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, ZOE.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

Zoe: YES, OF COURSE.

THANK YOU.

Gene: THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THIS WEEK.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND ENGAGED.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK, In FOCUS.

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