>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", MORE RAMIFICATIONS FROM THE LEAKED SUPREME COURT DECISION THAT WOULD COME IF HANDED DOWN IN THAT FORUM, ANNIHILATE ABORTION RIGHTS.

THE RIPPLE EFFECTS ON LARGE BUSINESSES, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND EVEN IN VITRO FERTILIZATION ARE VAST.

>>> THEN, COULD THE BABY FORMULA CRISIS HAVE BEEN AVERTED IF MORE WOMEN WORKED IN THE INDUSTRY?

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK, COLLATERAL CONSEQUENCES.

REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS, ANTIABORTION RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS, PRIVATE EMPLOYERS, RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, CLINICS, STATE GOVERNMENTS, AND OTHERS ARE FIGURING OUT HOW THEY WILL OPERATE AFTER THE LIKELY SUPREME COURT REVERSAL OF ROE V WADE.

OKLAHOMA PASSED A BILL THAT WOULD EFFECTIVELY BAN ALL ABORTIONS.

DEPENDING ON HOW THE DECISION IS WRITTEN, IT COULD IMPACT IN VITRO FERTILIZATION, OR IVF, A MEDICAL PROCEDURE USED BY COUPLES WANTING TO HAVE BABIES.

EXPERTS WARN THAT IT'S UNCLEAR IF THE PROCEDURE WOULD REMAIN LEGAL AND WHAT WILL BE DONE WITH UNUSED EMBRYOS UNDER CERTAIN LAWS SUCH AS OKLAHOMA'S.

MEANWHILE, EMPLOYERS WHO PROVIDE ABORTION CARE BENEFITS FOR WORKERS FACE CHALLENGES IN FULFILLING THEIR PROMISES TO EMPLOYEES.

THAT IS BECAUSE CERTAIN STATE LAWS COULD OPEN UP LAWSUITS AGAINST ANYONE WHO FACILITATES AN ABORTION.

RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, SOME WHO HAVE INTENSELY LOBBIED AGAINST ABORTION, ARE ALSO ADAPTING TO A POST RULE WORLD.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS ALREADY STATED IT OPPOSES ALL ABORTIONS, BUT IT DOES NOT SUPPORT CRIMINALIZING WOMEN TO HAVE THEM.

THEN DELEGATE HOLMES NORTON, SO WHAT ABOUT THESE WOMEN WHO ARE STOCKING UP ON SO-CALLED CHEMICAL ABORTIONS, MEDICAL ABORTIONS, MEDICATION ABORTIONS, ARE YOU 48 SIX AND PLAN B?

ARE THEY GOING TO BE SOUGHT OUT AND PROSECUTED FOR HAVING THOSE DRUGS, THOSE LEGAL DRUGS IN THEIR HOMES IF THEY LIVE IN STATES SUCH AS OKLAHOMA OR MISSISSIPPI?>> FIRST OF ALL, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO DISCOVER WHO THEY ALL ARE, MUCH LESS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO ENGAGE IN ABORTION TODAY.

SCIENCE HAS BECOME SO FAR THAT I THINK IT'S MUCH TOO LATE TO STOP ALL ABORTIONS FROM OCCURRING.

>> Bonnie: YES, AND SO-CALLED MEDICATION ABORTIONS ARE NOW ACCOUNTING FOR SLIGHTLY MORE THAN HALF OF ALL ABORTIONS.

BUT WHAT ABOUT COMPANIES THAT PROMISE TO PAY FOR TRAVEL AND THE MEDICAL EXPENSES OF HAVING AN ABORTION IN ANOTHER STATE FOR THEIR FEMALE EMPLOYEES?

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM?

>> IT'S GOING TO GO STATE-BY-STATE AGAIN, RIGHT?

BECAUSE IF WE LOSE OUR FEDERAL PROTECTION, IT'S BACK TO THE STATES.

IN THE MORE CONSERVATIVE RIGHT WING STATES LIKE MISSOURI, TEXAS, OKLAHOMA, I THINK YOU COULD SEE HEAVY, HEAVY FINES ON CORPORATIONS THAT CONTINUE TO OFFER THAT BENEFIT.

I ALSO THINK YOU WILL SEE SOME CORPORATIONS LEAVE THE STATES.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY THE EXACT SAME THING.

I FEEL AS THOUGH SOME OF THESE CORPORATIONS WILL LEAVE -- HE HAD CORPORATIONS LIKE TESLA IN TEXAS WHO SAID, YOU KNOW, I WILL FUND AND HELP AND SUPPORT FEMALE EMPLOYEES WHO WANT TO CROSS STATE LINES IN ORDER TO DO THIS, AND YOU MIGHT SEE COMPANIES LIKE TESLA LIKE TEXAS!

I HAVE A TO REPRESENT THE MORE PRO-LIFE ASPECT OF THIS ARGUMENT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY COME IT'S GOING TO BE IT WAS FOR THESE COMPANIES AND HE STATES.

I'VE ALSO READ A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CONGRESS BEING ABLE TO WEIGH ON THIS AND ACTUALLY CREATE PROTECTIONS FOR WOMEN WHO WANT TO LEAVE THE STATE THAT THEY ARE A RESIDENT IN ORDER TO RECEIVE AN ABORTION AND SAY THAT THE STATES SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PROHIBIT THEM FROM DOING THAT.

>> Bonnie: COMPANIES AND THEIR LAWYERS, THEIR LEGAL COUNSEL'S OFFICE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO POSSIBLY SUBJECT THEMSELVES TO A WHOLE LOT OF TROUBLE, PULL OUT OF SOME POTENTIALLY VERY PROFITABLE STATES, OR HAVE SOME NATIONAL RULE.

HOW ARE THEY -- HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE NAVIGATED THROUGH CONGRESS, FOR REPRESENTATIVE HAWORTH?

>> I THINK IT WILL BE DIFFICULT ON THE SENATE SIDE.

ON THE HOUSE I'D COMMITTED THE DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS WOULD PROBABLY PASS A LAW THAT WOULD LIMIT STATES' ABILITIES TO PENALIZE COMPANIES THAT PARTICIPATE IN THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY, OR, SPECIFICALLY THE LEGISLATIVE PROTECTIONS COMMITTEE IS ON THE NATURE OF THE PROTECTIONS WOULD BE OBVIOUS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE DISCUSSED.

BUT I THINK THE WHOLE POINT OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH IS THAT THESE MATTERS TO RETURN TO THE STATES.

SO I THINK THE APPETITE ON THE SENATE TO PASS AMONG THE SENATE, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS PLUS MANCHIN WOULD BE NOT THERE TO INTERFERE OR INTERVENE FROM THE NATIONAL LEVEL KAMALA, WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYING THAT IT TOTALLY OPPOSES ABORTION BUT DOES NOT WANT TO CRIMINALIZE WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS?

>> I IMAGINE THAT SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE CONSERVATIVE END OF THINGS FIELD.

EVER-PRESENT A RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVE, SO DON'T KEEP TOO MUCH PRACTICES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT ANYBODY REALLY WANTS TO SEE PERSECUTED, MAYBE PEOPLE ON THE VERY FAR EXTREME RIGHT WANTS TO SEE WOMEN PERSECUTED FOR GOING AND TRYING TO RECEIVE THIS PROCEDURE, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK WHAT WE WANT IN THIS POST-ROE AMERICA IS STATES BEING ABLE TO DECIDE WE DON'T WANT TO SEE WOMEN PROSECUTED FOR MAKING WHAT IS A VERY ROUGH AND HORRIFIC DECISION I THINK FOR ANYBODY INVOLVED.

WE WENT TO SEE PEOPLE WHO ARE CARRYING OUT THESE PROCEDURES ILLEGALLY BE THE ONES WHO BEAR THE BURDEN OF THIS SORT OF LEGISLATION.

SO I THINK MANY PEOPLE WILL SUPPORT THAT, AT LEAST ON THE PRO-LIFE END OF THE SCALE.

>> Bonnie: ON THE PRO-LIFE AND, RIGHTUT HOW ABOUT VOTERS IN THE MIDDLE, ELEANOR?

DO THEY SEE IT IS ANY MORE PALATABLE POLITICALLY TO PROSECUTE DOCTORS, MANY OF WHOM NOW COMMIT MANY OBGYN'S ARE WOMEN WHO ARE JUST TRYING TO HELP OTHER WOMEN GET THE REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH SERVICES?

>> YOU ASK ABOUT VOTERS IN THE MIDDLE, AND THAT IS WERE MOST VOTERS ARE.

IN THE MIDDLE.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THESE MEASURES THAT ATTEMPT TO BAR ABORTION ALTOGETHER TO SUCCEED.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU WILL HAVE TO -- HALF THE STATES WERE ABORTION IS LEGAL, AND THAT'S GOING TO MEAN WOMEN GOING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ABORTION WHEN THEY NEED ABORTION.

>> Bonnie: HAVE YOU HEARD FROM COMPANIES THAT ARE PLANNING TO PULL OUT OF CERTAIN STATES, RED STATES LIKE TEXAS, LIKE OKLAHOMA WHERE THE MOST SEVERE ANTIABORTION LAWS WILL BE PASSED OR HAVE ALREADY BEEN PASSED AND WILL TAKE EFFECT?

AND HOW THEY ARE DEALING WITH THAT IN TERMS OF THE BOTTOM LINE THAT THEY HAVE TO PULL OUT OF STATES THAT MIGHT BE PROFITABLE TO THEM?

>> THAT IS CERTAINLY HALF THING AND IN EFFECT ON STATES, SOUTHERN STATES, STATES LIKE TEXAS, WHO SEE THEY ARE TAKING EXTREME MEASURES IS HAVING AN EFFECT FAR BEYOND ABORTION ON MATTERS THAT MEAN THE MOST TO THEM LIKE THE BUSINESS CLIMATE.

>> I AM SO TIRED OF COMMITTO, WE ARE NOT GOING TO CONVERT WOMEN.

IT'S THE SAME THING AS OH, ROE V WADE IS NOT GOING TO BE OVERTURNED, ABORTION WILL NEVER BE MADE LEGAL.

YET, THERE WILL BE STATES WHERE THEY ARE GOING TO WALK WOMEN UP.

THEY WILL BE PROSECUTED.

AND IF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN SOME CITY LIKE ST. LOUIS, WHICH IS A BLUE CITY, WILL NOT PROSECUTE WOMEN FOR HAVING AN ABORTION, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO IS A RIGHT-WING, PRO-LIFE REPUBLICAN RUNNING FOR THE U.S. SENATE, HE WILL TAKE OVER AND HE WILL PROSECUTE WOMEN.

SO WHEN I HEAR, OH, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE WOMEN IN JAIL, I DON'T BELIEVE IT AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE CASE.

THEY ARE GOING TO PUNISH WOMEN AND MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF WOMEN THAT GET ILLEGAL ABORTIONS.

>> Bonnie: I HEARD ONE LEADER OF AN ORGANIZATION THAT RUNS A CRISIS PREGNANCY CENTERS SAY THAT, ASSUMING THIS DECISION IS WHAT IS HANDED DOWN AND IT'S NOT SOFTENED UP AT ALL, WHICH IS STILL A POSSIBILITY, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO OPEN UP FIVE TIMES AS MANY OF THOSE CRISIS PREGNANCY CLINICS AS THEY HAVE NOW AND DO MORE TO REACH OUT TO WOMEN.

SHOULD THEY BE REGULATED IF THEY DO THAT TO SAY EXACTLY HOW MUCH FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE THEY GIVE WOMEN, THAT EVERYTHING, IT'S REALLY JUST BLANKETS AND FOOD AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN COUNSELING, BUT IT ALL STOPS WHEN THE CHILD IS BORN.

>> BUT THAT ALSO GOES STATE TO STATE DEPENDING ON THEIR STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENTS AND THEN OF COURSE IN TERMS OF CARING FOR CHILDREN ONCE BORN, WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE BORN BECAUSE THE MOTHER DECIDED NOT TO PERFORM AN ABORTION THAT SHE MIGHT HAVE OTHERWISE DONE OR FOR ANY OTHER WAY.

THAT IS A SEPARATE SYSTEM, SO I DON'T THINK THAT WOULD PARTICULARLY PLAY INTO IT PREGNANCY, WHAT CRISIS PREGNANCY CENTERS TO.

>> Bonnie: SO DO YOU THINK THAT MODERATE CATHOLICS IN RED STATES LIKE YOURS, MISSOURI, ARE GOING TO TURN AGAINST THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IF IT SAYS TO THEM YOU CAN'T HAVE IBF DONE THEM YOU CAN'T CREATE CHILDREN IF YOU'RE PART OF AN INFERTILE COUPLE?

>> I'M NOT CATHOLIC BUT I HAVE A LOT OF CATHOLIC FRIENDS AND IT'S A BIG CATHOLIC CITY.

SOME PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THE CHURCH, BUT I THINK MOST OF THEM WILL STAY WITH THEIR CHURCH AND THEY WILL GO AHEAD AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO HAVE THE PROCEDURE DONE, JUST LIKE THEY'VE DONE WITH ABORTION.

>> Bonnie: HOW DO YOU THINK IT WILL PLAY POLITICALLY?

>> WELL, I AM HOPING THAT POLITICALLY THAT WOMEN AND MEN ARE GOING TO GET OUT THERE AND WE ARE GOING TO VOTE IN HUGE NUMBERS AGAINST ANYBODY THAT'S TRYING TO SHUT DOWN OUR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND CONTROL THE BODIES OF WOMEN.

>> I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THERE ARE LINES THAT NEED TO BE DRAWN.

I DON'T THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF VOTERS ARE IN SUPPORT OF SOMETHING LIKE BANNING IVF, THOUGH SOME OF THEM MIGHT BE ON THE PRO-LIFE END OF THE SPECTRUM.

SO I IMAGINE WE WILL START HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH THE PEOPLE, OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO WILL BE MAKING HIS DECISIONS ABOUT WHERE THE LINES IN THE SAND ARE GOING TO BE.

I AM A PRO-LIFER WHO BY NO MEANS WOULD SUPPORT A BAN ON THE IN VITRO FERTILIZATION.

ETIQUETTE THE TOOL AND PROCEDURE THAT MANY COUPLES NEED IN ORDER TO BEAR CHILDREN AND I WOULD NEVER WANT TO SEE A WORLD OR A STATE WHERE THAT WAS TAKEN AWAY AS A CHOICE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK ROE V WADE DID NOT HAVE -- IT WAS NOT A SUPER PRECEDENT.

IT WAS NOT A LOT OF AGREEMENT OR CONSTITUTIONAL OR HISTORICAL BACKING FOR THIS.

MUCH OF THE STRUCK OPINION THAT WAS WRITTEN RELIED ON THE WRITINGS OF ACTUALLY LIBERAL LAW PROFESSORS WHO SAID EVEN THOUGH I'M PRO-CHOICE AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE MISTY SHOULD LAND ON THIS LEGISLATION, ROE V WADE DOES NOT HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL BACKING TO BE A DECISION MADE BY THE SUPREME COURT AND THUSLY SHOULD BE PUT IN THE HANDS OF THE STATE!

I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE ARE AT.

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT RAMIFICATIONS IN THE DIFFERENT ROUTES THIS CAN TAKE IN DIFFERENT STATES, BUT THOSE ARE DISCUSSIONS THAT WE AS CONSTITUENTS SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE WITH OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES.> Bonnie: BUT I'M CURIOUS, I AM CURIOUS WHETHER THERE IS A GENERATIONAL DIVIDE AMONG YOUNG CONSERVATIVES AND OLD CONSERVATIVES ON THIS ISSUE, ON IVF AND WHETHER IT SHOULD BE BANNED.

AND IT'S NOT JUST -- I SHOULD SAY IT'S NOT JUST THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT SEES IT AS, YOU KNOW, THAT IT SHOULD BE BANNED OR ALSO EVANGELICAL CHURCHES THAT THINK IT SHOULD BE BANNED.

>> I THINK MAYBE SO MORE THAN A GENERATIONAL PROBLEM, THIS IS GOING TO BE SORT OF HOW MUCH RELIGIOSITY ARE WE ALLOWING TO COME INTO THIS ARGUMENT.

I AM NOT HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH ANY CONSERVATIVES TODAY, AND FEEL FREE TO POINT THEM OUT TO ME, THAT SAY IVF SHOULD BE BANNED IN ANY STATES, EVEN IN VERY PRO-LIFE LEANING STATES.

WOULD LOVE TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE THESE DISCUSSIONS, AND I THINK, AGAIN, LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN THE WAKE OF THIS DRAFT OPINION BEING LEAKED.

VERY DETAILED, POINTED DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS LEGISLATIVELY FOR EACH STATE.

>> NAN, CLOSING OUT WITH YOU, DO YOU THINK THE ARCHBISHOP OF SAN FRANCISCO SHOULD HAVE COME OUT AND SAID THAT HE WOULD DENY COMMUNION TO HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI?

GOOD MOVE OR BAD MOVE?

>> THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS A STRICT HIERARCHICAL ORGANIZATION, AND IT'S ENTIRELY WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE ARCHBISHOP TO DENY THE SACRAMENT TO ANY OF HIS PARISHIONERS!

HE HAS EXERCISED THAT PREROGATIVE.

CLEARLY, IT'S A STRONG POLITICAL STATEMENT.

CERTAINLY, HE DID SOMETHING THAT HE IS ALLOWED TO DO, AND IT'S PROBABLY NOT THE FIRST TIME HE'S DONE IT.

>> BONNIE, SHE, THE SPEAKER I BELIEVE HAS ALREADY RECEIVED COMMUNION HERE IN GEORGETOWN AND THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

>> THERE YOU GO.

>> OR I'M SURE AS THE FORMER HEAD OF CATHOLICS FOR CHOICE TOLD ME YEARS AGO, SHE WOULD JUST SNEAK INTO CHURCHES, YOU KNOW, WITH A SCARF ON OR SOMETHING, COVERING PART OF HER FACE AND TAKE COMMUNION WHEN THE PRIEST DID NOT KNOW WHO SHE WAS!

SHE WAS JUST SOMEBODY WHO SHOWED UP FOR MASS.

>> THAT SAID, WHAT PRACTICING CATHOLICS, WHAT CATHOLICS WILL TELL YOU IS THAT SNEAKING INTO COMMUNION DOES NOT NEGATE THE FACT THAT THE MESSAGE TO THE ARCHBISHOP WAS SEEKING TO SEND DOCTRINALLY WAS THAT THE SPEAKER'S POSITION, HER ADVOCACY, PUTS HER OWN SOUL AT RISK.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THAT IS, YOU KNOW, MY POSITION, BUT THAT'S WHAT HE IS CONVEYING.

>> RIGHT, EXACTLY.

OKAY.

>>> FROM REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS TO THE SHORTAGE OF BABY FORMULA: MOTHERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE STRUGGLING TO FIND INFANT FORMULA FOR THEIR BABIES.

THAT DESPITE URGENT SHIPMENTS OF FORMULA FLOATING THIS WEEK FROM EUROPE.

IT'S NEEDED TO FILL THE GIGANTIC VOID LEFT FROM THE CLOSURE OF ABBOTT NUTRITION'S PRODUCTION PLANT MORE THAN THREE MONTHS AGO.

TWO BABIES DIED FROM BACTERIAL INFECTIONS CAUSED BY SANITATION ISSUES AT THAT PLANT.

MOST IMPACTED OUR BABIES ALLERGIC TO COW'S MILK WHEN HEARINGS WERE HELD IN THE HOUSE THIS WEEK FOCUSING ON SECURING FORMULA FOR MOTHERS AND BABIES WHO NEED IT AND MAKING SURE THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

FOOD EXPERTS BELIEVE IT'S IMPORTANT TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF WOMEN IN THE FOOD TECH INDUSTRY.

OF THE FOUR MAIN BABY FORMULA COMPANIES, ABBOTT, RECKITT, NESTLC AND PARRA GOT, THERE IS NOT ONE WOMAN CEO.

ALTHOUGH THE SHORTAGE IS THE FAULT OF ABBOTT AND POOR PLANNING BY THE FDA, GENDER BIAS IN THE INDUSTRY COULD ALSO BE TO BLAME.

THERE HAVE BEEN NO REAL ADVANCES IN BABY FORMULA FOR DOZENS OF YEARS.

SO, DEBRA CARNAHAN, IF THERE WERE ONE OR MORE FEMALE CEOS OF THESE COMPANIES, WOULD WE BE IN A TERRIBLE SITUATION THAT WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK SO, BONNIE.

I THINK HISTORY HAS SHOWN WHEN THERE ARE MORE WOMEN INVOLVED IN WOMEN'S ISSUES, THERE IS MORE PROTECTION FOR WOMEN, THERE'S MORE CONCERNED ABOUT WOMEN'S ISSUES.

SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, YEAH, THERE IS A GREAT CHANCE THAT THE SANITATION ISSUES AND VIOLATIONS MAY NOT HAVE OCCURRED TO THE DEGREE THAT THEY DID.

>> I DISAGREE ON THAT POINT.

AT ON-THE-GO ABOUT THE GENDER OF THE PERSON SITTING AT THE HEAD OF THE TABLE, IT'S ABOUT COMPETENCY.

CLEARLY THERE WAS A LACK OF COMPETENCY AND LACK OF REGULATION.

PEOPLE LOOK IN THE SANITATION OF THE FACTORIES.

I DON'T THINK HAVING A FEMALE ORGANS AT THE TOP OF THE TABLE CHANGES THE WAY THAT THIS PLAYS OUT AT ALL.

>> I HAVE RAISED TWO BABIES WITH MY MALE COUNTERPART.

MY DAD WAS AN INCREDIBLE PARENT TO ME ALONG WITH MY MOM, AND THEY BOTH CARE.

MOMS AND DADS , PARENTS OF ALL GENDERS, CARE ABOUT THE KIDS.

IN FACT, IF WE ARE GOING THAT ROUTE, REALLY THE PEDIATRIC PROFESSION IN THE OB/GYN PROFESSION ARE HEAVILY POPULATED.

IN FACT, OB/GYN IS ALMOST DOMINATED BY FEMALE PHYSICIANS NOW.

SO THESE ARE AREAS THAT CERTAINLY INTERSECT WITH THE BABY FORMULA INDUSTRY.

SO, YOU KNOW, NO ONE FACILITATED A SWIFTER SOLUTION WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN, WE WOULD HOPE IN THE FULLEST OF TIME, RETROSPECTIVELY ABLE TO DO SO.

I DON'T THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH GENDER.

I AGREE WITH ALL MILAH.

>> NO MATTER WHAT, NO MATTER HOW THE GREAT MEN ARE AS PARENTS THESE DAYS, AND MORE AND MORE OF THEM ARE INCREDIBLE PARENTS, THEY STILL DON'T LACTATE.

THIS WOULD NOT BE THE FIRST THING THAT WOULD COME TO THEIR MIND ABOUT A SHORTAGE.

I SHOULD THINK PARTICULARLY IN THIS SITUATION.

>> BUT, BONNIE, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IT'S THE NONBLACK TATARS WHO NEED THE FORMULA.

LACTATE IS DON'T.

>> WHAT WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT IS SANITATION ISSUES AND THEY WERE AWARE OF THESE ISSUES.

THEY CONTINUED TO FIGHT AND THEY CONTINUED TO PRODUCE THEM.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE AWARE OF THESE ISSUES AND THEY DID NOT CORRECT THEM IN A TIMELY FASHION.

ACTUALLY DO THINK A WOMAN WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SANITATION OF BABY FORMULA.

I JUST DO.

YOU KNOW, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

INSTEAD, THEY PUT PROFIT ABOVE SAFETY.

>> THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS OF WAYS IN WHICH THE ECONOMICS OF BABY FORMULA, ITS PRODUCTION AND ITS SALE, HAVE BEEN DISTORTED.

AND A LOT OF IT IS DUE TO BUREAUCRACIES.

IS NOT ENTIRELY DUE TO THAT, BUT A LOT OF IT IS INCLUDING THE WOMEN, INFANTS AND CHILDREN FEDERAL AND STATE PROGRAMS AND TRADE POLICY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> NEITHER OF WHICH HAVE TO DO WITH MAIL EXECUTIVES.

>> I WAS SHOCKED BY THE FACT THAT THERE WERE SO FEW COMPANIES.

75 PERCENT OF BABIES NEED THIS FORMULA.

AND I WAS AMAZED THAT GIVEN HOW UNIVERSAL IS THE NEED THAT YOU HAVE A VIRTUAL MONOPOLY WITH TWO OR THREE COMPANIES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

SO WE'VE GOT TO GO OUTSIDE OF THAT.

>> THE PRESIDENT USED THE DEFENSE LAW, THE SAME WHEN HE USED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE, TO OPEN UP GAS RESERVES AND OIL RESERVES.

HE USED THAT LAW NOW TO STOP THE COMPANIES THAT ARE PRODUCING IT FROM SHIPPING IT OVER TO EUROPE.

WILL THAT EASE, IS IT ALREADY BEGINNING TO EASE THE SHORTAGE?

>> IT IS STARTING TO EASE, BUT ALSO THE FDA HAS CEASED A LOT OF THE INFANT FORMULA THAT'S BEING SHIPPED IN FROM EUROPE SAYING THAT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE ENGLISH LABELING OR DOES NOT HAVE THE AMERICAN STANDARDIZED SCOOP SIZE IN THE BOTTLE, THEY CANNOT GO AND GIVE THIS FORMULA TO AMERICAN MOTHERS.

IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S A LOT OF BLUNDERS HERE ALL ACROSS THE CHAIN, NOT ONLY THAT FOUR COMPANIES SEEMINGLY CONTROL ALL THE INFANT FORMULA, WE HAVE NOT ALLOWED EUROPEAN IMPORTS OF FORMULA COME EVEN THOUGH THERE FORMULA HASN'T BEEN MORE PROGRESSED INGREDIENTS IN MOVING FORWARD BE HEALTHIER FOR BABIES THAN AMERICANS HAS.

SO IT SEEMS LIKE THESE COMPANIES HAVE A STRONGHOLD ON THE MARKET HERE IN THIS SOMETHING WE HAVE NOT ADDRESSED UNTIL IT BECAME LEGAL FOR OUR CHILDREN.

>> I AGREE WITH ALL MILAH.

ACTUALLY APROPOS OF YOUR POINT, DEBBIE, THERE IS AN INTERNAL ELASTIC ATTITUDE ON THE PART OF GOVERNMENT THAT HAS LIMITED THE CHOICES OF MOMS.

AND THE BEST THING WE CAN DO IS GET MOMS IN THE WIC PROGRAM DODGES TO USE FOR THE FORMULA THEY CHOOSE AND OPEN UP THE MARKETPLACE.

>> I DEFINITELY AGREE WITH SEVERAL POINTS THAT WERE JUST MADE, AND IT IS AMAZING HOW FEW COMPANIES ARE MAKING FORMULA.

I ACTUALLY CAN SEE NOT PASSING ON FORMULA THAT DOES NOT HAVE ENGLISH LINK LABELING AND IT DOES NOT HAVE INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO USE IT, THAT MOMS AND DADS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND IT.

I CAN SEE WHY THERE WAS SOME CAUTION THERE WITH THE FDA.

YOU KNOW, ONCE AGAIN, I THINK THE ESTIMATES ARE IN THREE WEEKS.

YOU KNOW, IT SHOULD BE GOOD AGAIN AND WE SHOULD BE BACK UP TO WHERE WE SHOULD BE.

BUT ALSO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND THAT PEOPLE WERE STORING THE BABY FORMULA.

SO THERE IS A WHOLE SUPPLY DEMAND THING THAT WENT ON FOR THE COMPANIES.

SO A LOT OF FACTORS CAME TO FRUITION TOGETHER TO CREATE THE SITUATION.

>> WE INTERVIEWED THE HEAD OF THE VEGAN WOMEN'S SUMMIT THIS WEEK, AND SHE SAID THERE HAVE BEEN NO ADVANCES.

AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE ADVANCES WITH CLONED MEAT AND GOD KNOWS WHAT HAVE YOU OF THE THERE.

NO ADVANCES WITH BABY FORMULA IN 60 YEARS.

IS THAT NOT SOMETHING, THAT A WOMAN HAD SHE BEEN A CEO -- HAD THERE BEEN A FEMALE CEO, ONE OR TWO OF THESE COMPANIES WOULD HAVE LET IT FALL SO FAR BEHIND THE REST OF THE FOOD SYSTEM?

>> BABY FORMULAS HAVE BEEN CHANGING, JUST EVEN IN THE PAST COUPLE OF DECADES.

I KNOW THAT.

>> AND EVEN MORE SO THAN GENDER, IT GOES BACK TO THIS FOUR COMPANY OF OLIGOPOLY WE HAVE ON BABY FORMULA.

IF YOU HAVE FOUR COMMITTEES WITH A STRONGHOLD ON GRADING BABY FORMULA IS OWING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, WHAT INCENTIVE DO THEY HAVE TO IMPROVE?THEY HAVE THE STRONGHOLD ON THE RUG AND DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING.

THERE IS NO VIABLE COMPETITION BECAUSE NO OTHER SMALLER BUSINESS ARE COMING UP IN THE RANKS CREATING BABY FORMULA.

I THINK IT'S AN ISSUE OF BUREAUCRACY, MORE SO THAN AN ISSUE ABOUT GENDER.

WE CARE ABOUT THE BEES AND WANT THEM TO LIVE AND BE HEALTHY, BUT CORPORATIONS CARE ABOUT PROFIT.

>> AND THAT IS OKAY.

AND HONEST PROFIT IS A GOOD THING.

IF YOU'VE EARNED IT HONESTLY, OUR PROBLEM IS EXCESSIVE GOVERNMENT ACTION AND INTERFERENCE IN MARKETS.

>> THE BASIC PROBLEM IS YOU HAVE A VIRTUAL MONOPOLY.IF YOU DID NOT HAVE TWO OR THREE COMPANIES RESPONSIBLE FOR SUCH A PRODUCT THAT IS LIKE WATER, YOU CAN'T DO WITHOUT, WE WILL NOT BE IN THIS POSITION.

SO WE NEED TO COME AFTER THIS CRISIS, TAKE A REAL LOOK AT OUR ANTITRUST LAWS.

>> BUT FOR THE FDA GOING TO AVID, THESE HORRIBLE, UNSANITARY PRACTICES THAT THREATENS BABIES' LIVES AND HAVE KILLED BABIES WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED, AND THE WONDERFUL CORPORATE PROFIT IS GREAT MENTALITY.

YEAH, I WOULD KEEP GOING ON.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT EXCESSIVE GOVERNMENT REGULATION THAT CAUSED THIS TO HAPPEN.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THIS ENLIGHTENING DISCUSSION.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

LET'S KEEP TALKING ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK, AND INSTAGRAM AND VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE, PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

[MUSIC] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OF THIS EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.org/TO THE CONTRARY.