(Announcer) Here to discuss the future of conservatism, please welcome the 48th Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence.

With Atlantic staff writer Tim Alberta.

[instrumental music] [applause] (Tim Alberta) Hello.

Are we on?

Hello.

Good morning.

Mr.

Vice President.

How are you?

(Mike Pence) I'll let you know in about 39 minutes.

I. I'm good.

Tim, it's good to see you.

Thank you for having me.

(Tim Alberta) Yeah, of course.

It's been a crazy couple of weeks here.

I want to start, obviously, with the Charlie Kirk assassination.

You know, following the shooting last week, President Trump had been given several opportunities to call for healing an to bring down the temperature.

But instead he largely responded by blaming the quote unquote radical left and basically blaming the lef for all that ails the country, including political violence.

And I don't know if you were surprised by that, necessarily by his response, but were you bothered by it?

(Mike Pence) Well, again, thanks.

Thanks for having me here.

And I want to thank the Atlantic Festival and thank you all for the warm welcome.

I knew Charlie Kirk.

Met him in the campaign in 2016. he's a dynamic young man, a good, godly young man.

Devoted husband and fathe of two beautiful young children.

And as I sit here today, I'm just heartsic about what happened last week.

I understand the anger that so many feel around the country, including, I think the president.

But, there is no place in America for political violence, and it should be universally condemned.

[applause] (Mike Pence) I want to commend, law enforcement in Utah, Tim.

I spoke yesterday to Governor Spencer Cox, who I think really distinguished himself in the thoughtful way that he articulated the efforts of Utah law enforcement working with federal officials, to, to be able to apprehend the perpetrator of the crime within 33 hours was a great credit to law enforcement at every level, but also a great credit to the good people of Utah who responded, quickly and admirably.

You know, the Bible says you mourn with those who mourn and grieve with those who grieve.

And I think it's important that in the wake of this national tragedy that we take time simply to grieve the loss of life that occurred here.

But I also believe we need to resist the temptation to put America on trial.

I mean, absent any additional evidence, one man was responsible for the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

That man is now in custody.

And now comes justice.

And while with this rising tide of political violence that we've seen on both sides of the aisle, I understand the deep concern.

I don't think we ever want to lose sight of the fact of personal responsibility.

And the need for every American to focus on holding those accountable who would perpetrate this violence in the name of politics or for any other reason.

Now, all that being said, it's you know, Charlie Kirk probably had some differences with people in this room.

I probably do, too.

(Tim Alberta) No.

(Mike Pence) But that's okay.

(Tim Alberta) No.

(Mike Pence) He was a champion of freedom of speech.

He went as I've sought to do since I left office, he went to campuses.

It was a year and a half ago, I was at the UVU campus speaking with students Was at George Mason University just yesterday.

It's been a great joy for me.

But he took that case, that conservative use case, to campuses everywhere.

He was in a very real sense, he was a champion for the freedom of speech.

And I truly do believe that, we need to make sure that part of his legacy is a continuation of the vitality of freedom of speech for every American for years to come.

[applause] (Tim Alberta) Well, let's let's talk about freedom of speech, Mr.

Vice President.

I'm sure you saw the new last night that, Jimmy Kimmel's ABC show was pulled indefinitely after the FCC chairman, Brendan Carr, made sort of a mafioso threat to go after the network in response to Kimmel's remarks about the assassination.

Now, the substance of those remarks from Kimmel aside and to be clear, he was wrong, flat out wrong, factually, isn't the First Amendment at risk when the FCC chairman tries to intimidate a news network over content that he personally disagrees with or that the state disagrees with?

Well, the First Amendment of the Constitution, protects against government censorship of individuals.

And and, we ought ever to be vigilant to ensure the right of ever American to express their views without government interference or censorship.

The First Amendment, though, does not protect entertainers who say crass or thoughtless things, as Jimmy Kimmel did in the wake of a national tragedy.

And, private employers have every right, to dismiss employees, whether they're television talk show hosts, or otherwise, if they violat the standards of that company.

Now, I, I would have preferred that the chairman of the FCC had not weighed in.

(Tim Alberta) That's.

Yeah, that's the, (Mike Pence) but I, I respect the right of the networks to make the decision.

And it's not personal for me.

I, I don't think Jimmy Kimmel ever had a kind word to say about me.

And once apologized for something he said about me on the air.

But that's not the point.

The point in this case is that, in the wake of a heartbreaking tragedy impacting people across the country, that he would, he would act in such a callous and thoughtless way, and I respect the right of his employer to make that decision.

I think that speech is important, though, and I you know, the other part of this is, you know, I have long believed that democracy depends on heavy doses of civility.

I, during the course of my 20 years in public office, I tried to manifest that and proceeded out of my my Christia faith, something we share, Tim.

You know, I often tell people I'm a Christian, a conservativ and a Republican in that order.

And so, at least later in my life, when I got into politics, I tried to live up to that standard, to do unto other as I would have them do unto me.

And I hope I left Washington DC, with the kind of rapport and relationships that I perceive among people who knew that for me it was never personal.

I think negative personal attacks have no place in public life.

It wasn't always true for me, though.

Full disclosure you can buy my autobiography which is entitled “So Help M God” is available on Amazon.com and where all good books are sold.

Early in my political career I got very involved in negative personal attacks.

I was in a couple of congressional campaigns, gave as good as I got, but after it was all over, I had time to reflect on what the obligations of my Christian faith, which I'd come to as a freshman in college had on me and I... I wrote an essay entitled “Confessions o a Negative Campaigner” in 1991.

I said, if I ever had the chance to go back to Public Square first, I would seek to to run campaigns and serve in a way that treated other the way I wanted to be treated.

Secondly, I try to be about issues that were more important than my election and then third, be about winning.

And, I always sought to hew to that.

But in the wake of this risin tide of, of political violence going all the way back to the congressional baseball game that happened when we were in the White House, and my friend Steve Scalise almost lost his life that day.

The attack on Gabby Giffords, the assassination attempt against President Donald Trump, the attack on which threatened the lives of the family of Governor Shapiro in Pennsylvania.

Of course, the heinous murder of the Minnesota speaker of the House and Charlie Kirk's assassination.

I, in the wake of all of that.

Well, I don't think we should blame the American political debate on moments where evil grabs hold of the heart of an individual and leads to violence.

I do think leaders would do well to restore a threshold of civility in American public life.

Let's, let's argue about... let's argue about policies.

Let's argue about... (Tim Alberta Do you have any leaders in mind?

(Mike Pence) Well, I actually, I occasionally have a bad hair day, so I'm on the list.

But, I would tell you, I honestly believe that it's it's something I've witnesse over the last 30 years; it just you know, I'm somebody who believes you can disagree without being disagreeable.

I mean, one of the somebody I enjoyed a very warm, personal relationship with up until the day passed away was a giant of the Civil Rights Movement who served in the Congress, the late Congressman John Lewis.

Now, John and I, I think, Tim, disagreed on everything.

Except one and that was that.

Martin Luther King Jr wa one of the heroes of my youth.

I knew who John Lewis was the day I arrived, and we bonded on the foundation of our faith, even though we, our public policy expressed itself differently.

But he was a man of a deep Christian faith that had animated him being a enormously consequential leader in the Civil Rights Movement.

And I you know, it led to him inviting me to co-lead, the annual Civil Rights pilgrimage to Selma, Alabama, o the anniversary of Bloody Sunday and one of the great privileges of my life was walking across the Edmund Pettus Bridge with my children, my wife at my side, and John Lewis.

It was it was an extraordinary experience.

The humorous part of that was after I was elected vice president, I went to a big public event, I think it was a congressional baseball game itself, and this was before the tragic events that would follow a year later.

But I remember I walked into the the main hall at the stadium, and as you might imagine, all the Democrats and the staff were on this side of the main hall.

All the Republicans were on this side.

And as new vice president, I'm over here.

People are shaking hands.

And suddenly across the lobby I see John Lewis waving his arms and, an like, makes a beeline straight to me, throws his arms around me, says he's proud of me.

Great to see you.

And, I don't know if there were more slack jaws among Republicans or among Democrats, but it is possible to forge relationships with people that you differ with.

On issues.

As long as we understand that there there are things more important.

There are things that really bind us.

It's the ideals of the country.

It can be our shared faith.

(Tim Alberta) Mr.

Vice President, (Mike Pence) build on that.

(Tim Alberta) I want to linger for a moment on this question of the First Amendment and freedom of speech, because the FCC chairman saying to ABC, we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way.

This is not an isolated example.

We have President Trump saying that George Soros should be put in jail, Stephen Miller promising a government campaign to dismantle and destroy left wing groups.

The attorney general, Pam Bondi, talkin about prosecuting hate speech.

So I'm wondering, are you worried that the administratio is using Charlie Kirk's murder as a pretense for prosecuting political dissent in this country?

(Mike Pence) Well, I spent, four and a half years explaining what President Trump meant.

So I'll, I'll leave the president to his words.

Oh, I suppose... (Tim Alberta) You could take stab at it.

I have, I have more confidence in the peopl around the president than that.

I said before, I was disappointe to see the Chairman of the FCC weigh in to a matter.

(Tim Alberta But these are the people around, these are the people around the President, the Attorney General, talking about prosecuting hate speech as well.

(Mike Pence) Of course, we don't prosecute hate speech in America.

There are hate crimes in America where there are actions.

But we don't we don't prosecute speech.

I believe she's sought to correct that impression, and I appreciate that.

I, I would just tell you, Tim, that well, I understan the concern of many on the left when they hear about investigation.

I just remember that summer of 2020 and the riots that tore asunder Minneapolis and some, I think, 50 cities across the country.

And what we found along the way was that some organizations were actually pre-positioning bricks that rioters could use pre-positioning water and supplies and food.

And I don't know tha we ever got an answer to that.

And if there are individuals that are facilitating violence against American citizens, I believ they should be held to account.

And they should be exposed.

But that doesn't include people that are simply exercising their First Amendment rights in a peaceful manner.

(Tim Alberta) I want to talk about party politics, that the title of this sessio is The Future of Conservatism, and it seems like ancient history now, but you had really first distinguished yourself in the Congress as a conservative who was opposing your own party's president, George W. Bush, on some of the major initiatives of his presidency No Child Left Behind, Medicare Part D, the bank bailout.

(Tim Alberta) And I'm wondering today, when you see Republicans in Congress making these... (Mike Pence) I'm speaking at the Georg W. Bush library tomorrow somehow (Tim Alberta) Okay.

(Mike Pence) You're going to get me uninvited.

(Tim Alberta) Yeah, well, no, he wouldnt not invite you.

(Mike Pence) But you're right.

No, you're right.

(Tim Alberta) You guys are buds now.

But I'm curious, when you see Republicans in Congress toda making these sort of gratuitous shows of capitulation to President Trump, encouraging him to run for a third term or hold up, you know, hanging the gold framed portraits of hi in their congressional offices.

What does it say to yo about the separation of powers?

And what does it say to you about the stat of the Republican Party today?

(Mike Pence Well, I mean, even at the ris of getting uninvited tomorrow, I it took m a long time to get to Congress, whic you can read about in my book.

And I learned a lot of lessons along the way.

But one of the things I learned was I just I thought, if I ever get there, I'm just going to do what I told people I would do in all the years that preceded.

And I was actually a talk radio show host in Indiana.

I know that seems impossible when you... but I can be a lot more interesting, you know, when you let me go.

(Tim Alberta) Rush Limbaugh on decaf.

(Mike Pence) I was Rush Limbaugh on decaf.

I really was, but I really I'd spent ten years or better part of ten years on the radio talking about the principles of limited government, a strong defense, American leadership in the world, traditional values.

And I just said, when I get to Washington, I'm just going, this is how I'm going to vote.

And that wa when President Bush was elected.

The first bill introduced was doubling the Federal Department of Education, which I'm someone that believes, and I did as Governor, That education's a state and local function.

I've been married to a school teacher for 40 years, so, I voted against it.

I was one of the few we opposed entitlemen expansions under President Bush out of a commitment, a fiscal response, fiscal discipline.

And.

But people would oftentimes come up to me and they would say on the floor, they say, hey, you have to go alon with the administration on this because you work for the President.

And I would say, I don' I don't work for the President.

I work for the people of East Central Indiana.

And I believe that's how the framers intended it.

Yesterday was Constitution Day, so I visited my office in Washington, which is right across from the National Archives.

And if before you head home after the Atlantic Festival, you make your way to Washingto for the first time in history, the entire Constitution is displayed at the archives.

Every single page, every single amendment.

And, I made a point when I took over some interns for our foundation yesterday.

I pointed out what article one is.

It's written right there.

It's the legislative branch that appears under those timeless words chiseled into the hearts of every American.

We, the people.

I mean, at the founding, the country.

The framers of the Constitution conceived of a government of co-equal branches of government, and separation of powers.

I have an argument today with the President's unilateral tariffs imposed on friend and foe alike, because article one, section eight of the Constitution gives the authority to tax and tariff, they call them impose to the Congress... (Tim Alberta) Do Republicans in Congress... (Mike Pence) ...not the executive.... So.

I have been urging my colleagues to reclaim that authority, and and to reassert their their prerogatives.

(Tim Alberta) And what do they say to you when you when you encourage them to do that?

(Mike Pence Too close majorities right now.

I mean, Russell Kirk is m favorite political philosopher, wrote long ago that politics is the art of the possible.

And I don't, I don't, I don't ignore the fact that there's very close majorities in the House that that we live in a competitive time.

I don't ignore th the dominant role that President Trump plays in the lif of the Republican Party today.

But I actually think the members of my party would serve the president well.

Another great example of this is, I mean, I have over the last three years, I've visited Ukraine twice since the brutal and unprovoked Russian invasion.

I hold the view that the United States and our Western allies need to continue to give Ukraine the resources they need until the Russian invasion is stopped and repelled.

[applause] (Mike Pence) But right now, 85 members of the Senate are co-sponsoring a bill that would put back breaking sanctions on countries that buy Russian oil and essentiall prop up the Russian war machine.

And I, we've writte we've been very public about it.

That, the President has not given the Senate the green light to pass the bill yet.

And I if I was around, I'd probably be a little bit of a pain in the neck and say, let's pass it anyway.

Put on the floor put it on the President's desk.

I've met Vladimir Putin, and I'm going to tell you something, folks.

Vladimir Putin is no going to stop until he stopped.

He's, he's not going to stop until we raise the cost for his brutal invasion, so high that he that he rethinks it.

And I, I think the time has come, for harsh new sanctions against those that subsidize, the Russian war machine.

We probably ought to go ahead and unfreeze those Russian assets, about $300 billion, and send them to Ukraine.

But this is an importan contest, because I have no doubt I've said this many times.

I have no doubt.

I was on stage during my, I ran for president in 2023, not so where youd notice.

But I was on stage with another writer and commentator who said that my support for Ukraine, for U.S.

support for Ukraine would get us into World War three.

Well anybody that thinks capitulating to the barbaric ambitions of dictators will get you into World War III needs to study World War II.

I mean.

I say with some sadness, it was Republican that led the effort in the 1930s to look the other way, to sa it wasn't our fight in Europe.

And, and I got to tell you, I have no doubt if Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it's only a matter of time before he crosses a border that our men and women in uniform are going to have to go fight him.

And so I think we're going to need to stand firm now, call out our Western allies, as the President has rightly done, to do more.

But I think the time has come going back to article one, that the Senate and the House ought to send those sanctions to the President's desk and send a deafening message that the American people stand for freedom.

We stand as a leader of the free world.

(Tim Alberta) Yeah.

Mr.

Vice President, sticking with th Republican Party for a minute, I have this vivid recollection of you and I talking aboard your campaign airplane.

It's the fall of 2016.

(Mike Pence) It was called Trump Force Two.

(Tim Alberta) Well, was it called that during the campaign?

During the ‘16 campaign?

(Mike Pence) it was.

(Tim Alberta Trump Force Two well, this was this was minutes before, you may recall, minutes before the plane went off the tarmac at LaGuardi and almost went into the river, and the, and the ambulances and fire trucks had to come get us off the plane That's quite, quite an episode.

But you told me that evening on the plane, you said that looking back on the Bush era, you said that by about 2006, the Republican Party had lost its way.

Those were the words that you used.

And as a result of it, the Republican Party then went into this long period in the wilderness.

And you were describing thi ten years later in retrospect.

So here we are, late 2025.

And I'm curious, as you look back over the last ten years but specifically at this moment in the Republican Party with massive spending and tariffs and trade wars and threatening cities with military occupation and taking equity stakes in private companies, has your party once again lost its way?

(Mike Pence) Well, thank, thanks for remembering all that history.

I'm really humble [...] No, I did.

I said, look, I under President Bush, they were we were growing government and the federal level and I, I hold the view, that the Republican party needs to be a choice, not an echo.

And we lost the majority in 2006 that we would win it back.

But when we arrived at the White House in January 2017, I, I think part of the reason I was chosen is because candidate Donald Trump ran on and wanted to build an administration, one of the distinguished members of which you heard just a little bit ago, H.R.

McMaster, that would hew to that traditional conservative agenda; strong military, American leadership in the world, standing with our allies, standing up to our enemies, promoting pro-growth tax relief, deregulation of standing for the right to life, standing for values and religious liberty.

And I would I would tell you, Tim, that while the administration di not end the way I wanted it to, and I'll always believe I did my duty on that fateful day four years ago.

By God's grace.

Thank you.

But in the days leading up to that, I'm very proud of that record.

The first Trump administration that I like to call the Trump Pence administration, governed on a conservative agenda (Tim Alberta) as opposed to.

(Mike Pence) And the reason I jumped in that primary in 2023 was because I sense that the Republican Party and, and even my former running mate, were, were following what I call the siren song of populism, on board the conservative principle that literally, foreign policy beginning to embrace a more isolationis view of American foreign policy as opposed to America's the leader of the free world, policies, that frankly expand big government, speak of price controls, on a whole range of industries, including our pharmaceutical industries.

And I also, frankly, saw, President Trump as a candidate and others in our party marginalizing, the right to life after what I, what I believe was an extraordinary new beginning for life for the American people, in the overturning of Roe versus Wade.

And so I do have a concern that while I'm grateful for the extension of the ta cuts, I am I'm a frankly proud of President Trump for taking action.

Military action against Iran.

I'm grateful that he's gotten to a better place on Ukraine because the forces in and around the President in this administration are driving toward that populist agenda.

And, my calling right now is simpl to be a voice for what I think has just been the traditional conservative Reagan agenda.

That's the agenda that drew me to the Republican Party.

(Tim Alberta) Is there a I know that, you know in talking with friends of yours and kindred spirits you hold to a belief that once the Trump era passes and that once he has left the national stage, that the party will come back to those traditional conservative values, but I look around and I se this, this exodus over the past 10 or 15 years of some of those traditiona small government conservatives in the Republican Party, largely replaced by some of those sort of flame throwing populists that you've been describing.

So I'm wondering where that confidence comes from.

Why do you believe tha the Republican Party will regain its old, small government form once Trump exits stage right?

(Mike Pence) Becaus because I think President Trump, who I hope, it may surprise you because he and I are very different people.

We had a very good relationship for four years, very good working relationship, actually never had a cross word between us until those fateful days at the end.

And I think President Trump has, in effect, changed the leadership of the Republican Party in many respects.

But, Tim, I just I don't believe he's changed the Republican Party.

(Tim Alberta) You don't?

(Mike Pence) No, I've been traveling around the country, you know, without all the company.

I used to have.

Get to stop people on the street and say hello at the airport, speak at events speak at schools, and everywhere I go, I have had people come up to me and say, I just say kind words about our service.

And then they'll, the Republican leaning voters will say, I just agree with your philosophy of government.

I really believe that.

I think that as long as we hold that banner high, the time will come when people come back to it.

And I think that's not only good for the Republican Party, which may not be a real priority for some in the room, but I thin when you look at the agenda of a of a strong America in the world, a strong national defense, limited government fiscal responsibility, a respect for values and liberties, that's just good for America.

And I think the American people aren't going to have it any other way.

You know, can I tell you one other anecdote?

We're here at the World Trade Center.

You know, last week our heart broke on Wednesday, and then for me, on Thursday.

I always have a heavy heart on September 11th.

But I want to give you a littl bit of hope about the country.

Back when I was a radio talk show host, I was interviewing a whole bunch of Medal of Honor winners from World War II.

We have a memorial in Indianapolis.

We dedicated it.

And this was 1999, and this World War II vetera who had jumped on a hand grenade in a foxhole in Europe and it went off.

I don't even know how I was talking to him.

Got the Medal of Honor, an he's sitting next to me and he's obviously a conservative guy and so older fellow.

And so I got pretty comfortable with him.

And I just said, it's more like 1999.

I said, [...], you [...] me.

I said, you, you probably look aroun at youth these days and hardly really worry about America, don't you?

Being part of the Greatest Generation.

And all of a sudden his face just changed and he said, you dont know the first idea what you're talking about.

This was on the air.

And I said, well why don't why, don't you help me And he said, growing up in the 1930s, we partied as much as kids do these days.

We ran around, we waste time, drove our parents crazy.

He said, but when the time came, we did what needed to be done because we were Americans.

And what you don't understand is these kids will do the same thing.

Fast forward two years.

Planes hit right here.

Then at the Pentagon and then in Shanksville.

And the next day in cities and towns, large and small.

There were lines around the block at every recruiting station in America.

And I'll never forget on that day I thought of that man and that he was right.

I mean, I really do believe at the end of the day, those three words I mentioned that I just saw yesterday in the National Archives, other than my faith in God, my faith in the American people is boundless, and American people will steer us back to what they know has always made this country strong and prosperous and free and.

And they'll always ste up and do what needs to be done.

(Tim Alberta) I'd like to close the loo on this question of Republican -ism and the future.

To your point that Trump, you believe Trump has no fundamentally changed the party.

I would disagree, and the clearest data point would be that the former Vice President under Donald Trump was Mike Pence.

The current Vice Presiden under Donald Trump is J.D.

Vance What do you make of J.D.

Vance?

(Mike Pence) We've actually never met, (Tim Alberta) Never?

(Mike Pence) No.

He was a pretty harsh critic of our administration during our four years.

It's a free country.

I never held it against him.

Emerged in politics after we had left office.

Look, I, I have a unique appreciation for that job.

And, I pray for the Vice President.

I pray for Usha and for the little children.

And, and I wish hi well in the role that he's in.

(Tim Alberta Did you have any conversation when he was put on the ticket?

(Mike Pence) Well, but, but to your point, I think the time will come when our party is talking about the direction that we're goin to take our party, whether it's back to those traditional conservative values as an alternative to a Republican, to a Democrat party's agenda, or whether we're going to follow up, a populist, even a progressive agenda Of, of isolationism and big government and shying away from values.

And I, I I look forward to that debate.

(Tim Alberta I'm curious, Mr.

Vice President.

Now that you have some distance from office, you know, 2024 was the first time that you hadn't been on the ballot in, you know, decades and you chose not to endorse President Trump.

And obviously that made some waves.

And I'm wondering, with the distance that you had from office and having not been on the ballot yourself, whether you had sort of a newfound appreciation for some of those traditional conservatives who had been reluctant to support him and to support your ticket back in 2016 or again in 2020.

Well I'll I'll never understand why they wouldn't support the ticket I was on.

But look, I know I, I, I stayed out of the 24 race.

The president and I have an enduring difference about my duties under the Constitution on a day in January in 2021.

I always thought he'd come around on that.

And the fact that he hasn't, remains an issue between us.

But I also withheld my endorsemen for all the reasons that you've helped articulate today.

I saw the president beginning to steer away from the agenda that the two of us had governed on, and I, I couldn't endorse an agenda that led our party in a different direction.

And since the outset o the administration, as I said, we have we've tried to be praiseworth when we see the administration doing those things that I think are consistent, with, with how we governed and how Republicans would hop for an administration to govern.

But we've been willing to take on issues and even personnel that we think depart from the standards and and values and principles of Republicans and that's what that's what kept me out.

And, but I just hope to continue to be, among others, to be an anchor to windward, because I do think, I do think that, the time will come that, either we have a changing of the guard in politics, or we face some other national crisis at home or abroad, and the American people will come back to the things that we know make us strong and prosperous and free.

And, when that comes, I, I'm going to be a voice within the Republican Party to carry that.

(Tim Alberta) Are you still in contact with the President at all, even casually, when a grandkid is born or anything like that?

I don't talk as much to the President as I used to.

We had a brief encounte at President Carter's funeral.

I congratulated the President, and, his countenance softened, and he gave me a vigorous handshake.

(Tim Alberta) A vigorous handshake.

(Mike Pence) What?

(Tim Alberta) A vigorous handshake?

(Mike Pence) It was a vigorous handshake.

And, I congratulated Melania as well.

And, but, you know, I don't talk to the President as much as I used to, but I have every reason to believe he still listens to me.

And... (Tim Alberta) you do and that's really interesting.

Why do you say that?

(Mike Pence) Well, because, I know things.

You know, one of the, and one of the best kept secrets in America, actually, And you got a sense of this from H.R.

McMaster, is that, and I hope it's an encouragement.

Donald Trump listens.

He does.

I lost count of the number of times that I would alway wait till it was just us alone because I always thought Walter Mondale put it best.

He said the Vice President owe the President his opinion once and in private.

And I hewed to that until history in my [...] to the Constitution, did not permit it.

But I do believe the President listens and is attentive.

And so while I'm not in the Oval Office, as I was virtually every day for four years, I'm my hope is to continue to to be an influence, to encourage the better angels of his nature.

And, I'll help him.

We whatever differences you have with President Donald Trump, he is our president and we want him to be successful.

We want America to be successful.

And, and that's the reason I pray for the President.

And that's the reason why I'll continue to try and be a voice, a consistent voice, for conservative values.

(Tim Alberta) Let me close... (Mike Pence) So help me God.

(Tim Alberta) Let me close with this, Mr.

Vice President.

We've gone over our 39 minutes.

Although Jeff Goldberg encouraged me backstage to do so I just want to be clear on that.

He said the clock does not apply to Vice President Mike Pence.

That's not verbatim, but close.

I'm curious.

(Mike Pence) It's like the Senate, for heaven's sakes.

(Tim Alberta) Your faith is so central to your life.

And I was so struck in reading your book, which really is compelling.

And I would encourage people to to, to read it for themselves.

(Mike Pence) Thank you, Tim.

(Tim Alberta) You're welcome.

You know, President Trump didn' just put you in danger that day.

He put your family in danger.

And I know that your family your wife have had a hard time with that.

You had a very hard time with that.

You were very angry.

Has it been a struggle to forgive President Trump for what he did to yo and your family on January 6th?

You know, when we were, evacuated first to my Senate office and then to the loading dock underneath the Capitol, I, we were witnessing mostly just on our phones what was happening.

And, I've often been asked if I was afraid, and I don't say this to to, be self-important.

I wasn't afraid, I was angry.

I was angry at what I saw, and I found myself thinking, not this, not here, not in America.

I mean, to see the Capitol of the free world desecrated and ransacked To see law enforcement officers assaulted deeply angered me.

But I will tell you, I think wha was a day of tragedy I think history will record as a triumph of freedom.

Because as I sat at a recent gathering up in Boston.

Some people and some of you kindly welcomed me today.

And people expressed to me, even to this day, appreciation for what we were able to do that day.

But I remind people that it was every Republican and every Democrat in the House and Senat who reconvened the very same day after Capitol Hill Police secured the Capitol, and we completed our wor to see to the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution of the United States.

Our institutions held that day.

And I, and I believe every member of the Congress and of the Senate deserves to be remembered for that.

But the next morning I woke up, and as you may recall, the President made statements committing to a peaceful transfer of power.

He condemned the rioters.

He remembered, Lee said, that you will pay I thought we were back to a good place.

(Tim Alberta) So much for that.

(Mike Pence) But as the week wore on, I. I went about my business focusing on the transition, and it was the following Monday after January 6th that, his daughter and son in law approached my office in the West Wing and said, would you be willing to meet with the President?

He'd like to talk to you.

And I said, well, I said, I don't really have anything more to say to him, but if he's got something to say to me, I'll listen to him, and I will tell you something.

People in this room may be surprised to hear.

I remember I walked down to the Oval Office, back the small hallway to the small dining room where we'd spent so many time and so many meals together and, the President was sitting at the end of the table and he was deeply contrite, Tim, about what had happened.

He truly was.

He immediately asked, ask for my family.

He said he was not aware that Karen and my daughter were with me.

I said, well, they wouldn't leave, Mr.

President, I tried to get them to leave the building.

They wouldn't go.

And then we sat and we talked all through it, and I again explained to him what I believe my duty was and how I kept my oath to the Constitution that day.

I also told him that I, I thought the peopl that had desecrated the Capitol had done a great disservice to our movement.

Because of the people that I met through countless rallies, countless events over four and a half years are some of the most hard working, decent, God fearing, law abiding patriotic people I've ever met who would never do somethin like that there or anywhere else And I told him that.

But we talked.

We talked through it.

And in the days that followed, we worked together to complet the work of the administration.

And we parted amicably, Tim.

I'll never forget the one of our last short meeting in that very same little room.

The President again, very, in many ways downcast for those remaining weeks for the administration, made reference again to our disagreement on that.

And, I told him that I was praying for him.

And at the end of the meeting I got up and I said, well, Mr.

President is probably two things we may never agree on, because when I told him I was praying for him, he said, don't bother.

(Tim Alberta) He said, don't bother praying for him.

(Mike Pence) He did, but he said it in a sad tone.

When I got up, I said, there's probably two things we're never going to agree on.

And he looked up faintly, and from where he was seated at the end of the table, and he said, what's that?

And I said, well, we'r probably never going to agree.

On what I did that day.

And I looked at him and I said, I'm never going to stop praying for you.

And I haven't.

Was I angry, Tim?

Yes.

But I have learned as a follower of Jesus Christ, that when you pray for people consistently, it's forgiveness flows out of that eventually.

When I believe I've forgiven the President from my heart.

I haven't forgotten.

I havent compromised or said I have a different view of matters.

But I've forgiven him from my heart.

And I think sometimes, forgiveness might be one of our scarcest natural resource, natural resources these days.

And that, we could all do well to think about being more forgiving to one another.

Because ultimately, this.

I had somebody come u me, I went to the inauguration because I felt forme Vice President should be there.

I had gone to the inauguration of President Biden and and I went to President Trump's inauguration.

and I had a senator who all of you would recognize the name.

So I won't use it.

Walk up to me.

And he said, good to see you, Mr.

Vice President.

I'm glad you're here.

But he said and he said to me with a sigh, it's a funny business we're in, isnt it?

I put my hand on his shoulder and I said, it's not a business It's a country.

And he all of a sudden said, you're right.

I mean, sometimes I think we the political debate kind of devolves into some, you know, entertainment or jousting, when in fact we've got to find a way to be together.

We've got to find a way to work out our differences in a principled way.

And I think the way we work out our differences is if each of us will stand without apology on the common ground of the Constitutio of the United States of America.

It is the common ground.

and i was fashioned to bring together disparate voices and disparate ideals into an environment where those could be resolved and move forward as a nation.

And I think, as I said, I'm very hopeful about the future because I have great faith in the American people.

But I also have faith in God that he's always had his hand on this nation.

And we'll see us through, because I think we've got great challenges ahead.

And most of the are going to be across oceans.

My son's a Major in the United States Marine Corps.

He is currently deployed.

one of my own worthy son-in-laws is a Lieutenant Commander in the United States Navy.

In our family, it's very personal.

My dad fought in combat in Korea.

I think the decisions that we make as Americans, collectively, as Americans working through the political process, it's going to have a great deal to say what what the rest of the century looks like and how much it mirrors th first half of the last century.

So the stakes are high.

We've got to come together.

I believe we will.

And, I hope my presence here today gives some evidence of the fact that, I think it all begins when we start talking to eac other, listening to each other.

And I thank you for your kind attention today.

(Tim Alberta) Mr.

Vice President.

[applause] (Tim Alberta) Thank you for being here.

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