- [Reporter] State House leaders suggest more election integrity legislation may be on the horizon.

And it's a record start for families applying for private school tuition scholarships.

This is State Lines.

- [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you, who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[dramatic music] - Welcome back to State Lines, everyone.

I'm Kelly McCullen, have a great panel this week.

Joining me, Dawn Vaughn of the News and Observer.

Senator Mary Willis Bode of Granville and Wake Counties.

To her right Matthew Winslow, the representative of Franklin and Granville Counties.

And in seat four, journalist supreme, Editor in chief of Cardinal and Pine, Billy Ball.

Hello everyone.

I haven't seen you in a while, and it's good to have the gang back together.

Got a, got a handful of topics, Billy and you drew the short straw, so we'll start with you.

I want to ask you about speaker Tim Moore saying that the house could be offering up some new, quote, election integrity legislation during the 2024 legislative session.

Speaker Moore suggested voter ID laws might need some tightening.

He thinks early voting period, the days we vote could be shortened.

I think Lieutenant Governor's weighed in on this late last year.

Voters, here's your civic lesson of the day.

You'll need to show one of 99 approved forms of ID to vote this year.

So if you have any questions, call your county elections board.

They have all the answers.

The proposal though could change the rules related to folks who sign affidavits because they don't have an approved ID card.

Senate President Phil Berger has countered Speaker Moore, saying he might wanna see the process unfold at least through one election cycle cycle before Republicans fix anything.

Billy, what's your take?

- I think it's very interesting that there's a difference between what Speaker Moore is saying and what Phil Berger is saying on this because they they usually seem to be in lockstep on voter issues.

But I will say that I think anyone who's observed Speaker Moore for a number of years, as I have, as anyone who's been covering North Carolina has, this isn't really out of left field.

I think he's been at the front on voter ID legislation numerous times.

I think it's a fair question to ask what's changed or what happened?

What is spurring the need for more changes in voter ID?

What is spurring all of this?

And I think it's happening in a national context where we're seeing this in other states.

And in particular, I would ask about the early voting as well.

I think it needs to be asked why there would be any conversation about reducing early voting hours.

I think most people are going to assume that this is about a partisan advantage, but it's worth saying as well Republicans early vote too.

So, you know, is this something that is making it easier for North Carolinians to vote or not?

It doesn't sound like it.

But I think Speaker Moore is gonna need to answer the question about what's changed.

Why are we suddenly needing to make a change before the election this year?

So, like I said, I think it's very interesting that Senator Berger is in a different place on this.

- All right, Representative Winslow, you can't speak for the house speaker, of course not.

But I don't believe the house speaker speaks by accident when he's bringing up these topics.

So election integrity is a great word.

Voters who vote red love election integrity, and everyone supports solid election.

So what's the take here?

Why are adjustments possibly needed in the spring?

- I think you said the right word.

The affidavit, right?

The affidavit says you can walk in, not have your ID and say, I just forgot it.

And they say, okay, fine, go vote.

So really, what's the point of having a voter ID and having identification of who you are, that I'm the person who's voting for me?

Sorry, I touched my microphone there.

I'm the person voting for me, and not someone voting in my place, when you can just say that, I am who I am, but I just forgot my ID today.

Okay, fine, go vote.

So I think that's what the speaker's talking about, about making sure that we're closing those loopholes in the system.

- Senator Bode.

- Sure.

So I think on that point, you know, as lawmakers we have this challenge.

We wanna make sure, I agree with Representative Winslow, we're all concerned about election integrity.

We want to make sure that people trust the results of elections.

So on the one hand, we need to make sure that we have really robust and rigorous laws and procedures in place.

But on the other hand, we want to make sure that the pathway to the ballot box for eligible voters is not an obstacle course.

It's not riddled with unnecessary barriers that prevent eligible voters from casting their vote.

I think with voter ID, this is the first time in North Carolina for the primary in general that we will have it.

And I think it's really important to understand, to that point about the affidavit, what happens when you cast a provisional ballot.

So you go in, in person, say, during early vote, and you get into the voting site, and you say, oh, I don't have my ID.

You're then moved to the side and a poll worker is assigned to you.

It could be a precinct judge.

And then for, on average, the next six to eight minutes, you fill out an envelope, a provisional ballot envelope, which includes an affidavit, which by the way, under North Carolina law, it's a felony to falsify an affidavit.

And then that person goes and casts their ballot.

But what happens to that provisional ballot is it's set aside, and between three and 10 days after the election day, it is reviewed by the County Board of Elections.

And so there are processes in place to check and balance that process.

And I agree with Senator Berger.

I think it is prudent that we see it implemented before we try and tweak it and make changes.

- A Democratic senator agrees with Senator Berger, so.

- You know, but here's the thing, if you just forget your ID to go vote, it sounds like it'd be a whole lot easier just to go home and get your ID or just come back and vote another day.

I know you kinda suppose, I guess no one says that.

Are we talking about people forgetting their ID or people who can't show you they're on the grid in any man or Dawn, I, what's the-- - Well, voter ID has been topic for several years, right?

Because it's come up before.

So there was a lot for, I guess, you know, half a dozen years ago of trying to help people who don't have some sort of identification to work on doing that.

So it's not like it's starting from zero and this is all of a sudden something that's suddenly on everybody's radar.

But Felix Speaker Moore's been talking about voter ID is something that's important to him since before the last election.

And he does speak off the cuff sometimes.

Senator Berger is much more methodical and planned out with what he says.

So if Moore said this is an issue that's worked for him before, politically, we all know he is running for Congress.

He won't be in the legislative building, you know, after a year from now, and Berger will, so Berger is thinking more long-term and he never says right away that he wants to do something, he wants to think about it, what would the proposed legislation look like, And then he will think if there's something that he wants to do with Moore.

- Alright, next topic will be rate hikes from Duke Energy Carolina.

North Carolina's Attorney General, Josh Stein, at least his office is opposing Duke's 14% hike in electricity rates.

The AGs office is appealing directly to the State Utilities Commission, where it's arguing the rate increase, according to them is unlawful and unwarranted.

Duke Energy Carolina's three-step rate increase began this past January 15th with an 8.5% rate hike.

Customers, you can expect hikes of 3.8% and 3.5% to take effect in years 2025 and 2026.

Senator Bode, I don't think any of us wrote, maybe you're an expert in electrical utilities.

How would-- - I am not, to full disclosure-- - It's easy for a politician to fight for the people in lower rate increases on anything from insurance to electrical bills.

But how do we know what Duke needs and what's a fair rate of return or return on equity, versus it's an election year and this gentleman wants to be governor?

- Sure, excellent question.

I think, you know, so Duke Energy enjoys the privilege of operating as a public utility, as a protected monopoly by the government.

And so what that means for us as consumers, most of us don't have options when it comes to buying this very important utility.

And so that means it is incumbent upon the government, elected officials, the Utilities Commission, to make sure that that special privilege is not being abused.

And so I really commend Attorney General, Josh Stein, for saying, you know, this is important.

This is gonna affect many North Carolinians, especially at a time where everyone is sensitive to price increases, this deserves an extra look.

Let's review this, let's scrutinize it, and let's really understand where those rate increases are coming from, and make sure that the consumer is not bearing the responsibility of all those costs.

- Representative Winslow, you're an entrepreneur.

I don't think you have a monopoly on construction up in Northern Port.

Where does a monopoly stand, especially a company that has a monopoly that can make a profit.

How do you balance that out and respect free market, but also respect the need for, you know, society needs this service?

- Well, it's... - I know it's a hard question.

- That's a big question, we need more time on the show for that.

But, you know, the problem that's happening right now and especially North Carolina, across the United States, is we are seeing pressures on our utility system across the board.

This year, 2022, was the first year we saw a million EVs sold.

- Electric vehicles.

- Electric vehicles, right.

It took 10 years prior to get to a million EVs sold.

An EV on average uses about half the wattage or amps of the average household.

I'm relating back to something I know, construction, right?

So you look at that and you say, "So what demand is it putting on the system?"

And then you take these large data grids for data mining, for cryptocurrency, and you look at the growth of the state and across the board, we're seeing demands on a system that we haven't seen in, you know, 30 years.

And so what's happening is with these demands plus inflation coming from the policies from the federal government, you get inflation and you also have interest on top of it, it's putting demands on our system and having increase in our utility bills.

- Billy, I see the gears turning there.

That's all high tech things, electric vehicles, cryptocurrency, you know, all the data mining.

- I think the first thing, and I'm glad that the Attorney General is talking about this.

I think, you know, there's a lot of pressure on electrical systems to change as well, to make a more environmentally sustainable system.

So there are costs associated with that.

But there are an extraordinary number of pressures on consumers as well.

Affordability, livability, these are things that are huge issues right now for people.

And yeah, it's a terrifying sound.

You're talking about a huge rate increase on your utility bills.

Some people just, it's not gonna happen.

Where are they gonna find that money?

So I think that, you know, we ask a lot of our government sometimes, but I think one of the things that we hope for it to be is kind of a backstop to protect us from increases that might just make it too expensive to live.

And I think a lot of people would say, we're already there.

- It's not like everyone got big raises and they're like, oh, you know, I wanna spend it on a higher energy bill or anything else.

- And no one here was an adult in the seventies.

That's what the seventies felt like.

I'll put it out, I'll get an email about that.

I mean, where everything was expensive and folks were working hard and prices were going up.

- It's a challenge.

We're looking at not just economic development, but you look at your everyday person that's, you know, trying to, do I pay my electric bill, do I pay my gas bill, pa for fuel driving back and forth to work, or do I pay for groceries?

And so it is a big, when you say, oh, it's only 5% or it's only 8%, it adds up over time.

And then you look at economic development opportunities, they look at what our cost of our utilities are in our state and say, is it cheaper to go somewhere else?

Not necessarily in the United States, but in other countries.

- Well, and I think one thing about, you know, buying groceries or some of our other goods and services is that people have a choice and they have an option, and they can evaluate those options.

When we're talking about a public utility that's a monopoly, people don't have that choice, and they have to have electricity.

So, I mean, I think that's where the government, to your point, I love that, you know, a backstop to make sure that there is someone who's advocating for the consumer because the monopoly, the traditional pressures of supply and demand are not at play.

- So like, you can't buy like the cheaper, on sale version of electricity that month, right?

- Or the second hand, right?

- Well, I know it's just a difficult topic.

It's just everyone sees a higher bill, but if Netflix or some of these other streaming services go up 10, 11%, we don't bat an eye, we just keep paying it.

- Sure you do.

You'd be like, I don't know, do I like Netflix enough?

Because when they raised their prices, I have Netflix, I thought, well, do I wanna keep it?

- You know, you cut it off and then 48 hours later you realize they've got you.

- Did you really like that show?

- They've got you, and you really did like that show.

- I kept it.

- Well, you canceled your Amazon subscription.

That's the right.

- I'm not going there.

- And see here we are representing the people here.

- That's a bridge-- - Here at PBS North Carolina.

- A necessity.

- That's a necessity, right?

- Right.

- All right, North Carolina families are applying for opportunity scholarships in record numbers this spring.

These are publicly funded vouchers that help families cover private school tuition.

Income limitations were lifted in 2023, so all families that can qualify can apply for an opportunity scholarship.

Almost 32,000 applications to receive the first five days of the filing period, which started in early February.

Those original opportunity scholarships were tailored to low-income families.

But that has certainly changed.

And over 32,000 vouchers were awarded, just this past school year, Representative Winslow.

So as many applicants are now in as children received vouchers for this school year.

It's gotta be a record just by sheer numbers.

- So what does it tell you?

It tells you it's needed and it's tell you it's wanted, it's something that's in the system that parents are looking for to give themselves something different, they're not able to get in their current schools.

So if there wasn't a demand for it, they wouldn't be asking for it.

And you look at the system, how it's tiered.

It originally was set up for low-income, and it's still set up for low-income students.

We have a one, two, three, and four.

Four would be the top, and then one would be the people that have the lowest income.

They get it first, and then once that money runs out, it goes tier one, two, and three from there behind it.

So I got to, I was sharing with earlier that I gotta speak for some eighth grade civics kids, and they're asking a bunch of questions.

If you prepare for a show, you go before a bunch of eighth graders.

And they asked about, you know, what are some of the greatest challenges?

And what I said is that we are all made to be different and we all learn differently.

And so the opportunity scholarship gives 'em that opportunity to go someplace where it fits your child better than the system.

- Senator.

- Yeah so, you know, I don't think it's any surprise that when you lift the income cap, you make the potential people who wanna apply for something a bigger group of people, then you're gonna see an increase.

So I think that's just kind of, that's what we all expected.

I think what's more interesting is to really better understand those different income brackets that Representative Winslow talked about.

The Opportunity Scholarship, as mentioned, was initially tailored for some of our lower income families.

It was $6,400 of an Opportunity Scholarship last year.

It's 7,400 now this year.

I would be really interested to see the increases in those lower income brackets as opposed to, you know, families that are above the $111,000 income cap, just to really better understand what that new demand looks like and who this policy is, who's availing themselves of this policy.

- How do you see the competition, potential competition from private schools and vouchers affecting public schools?

Public schools will say, "That money should have gone to us.

"We have a better public school system."

And the critics, of course, say, "No, you have a billion dollars "and this is a few hundred million "that's not even in competition with you "in terms of state funding.

- Well, I think that, you know, I don't think competition is really a fair word because public schools, they have to provide transportation to their students and they have to provide free and reduced lunch.

They're also not allowed calendar flexibility like private schools and some of our charter schools are.

So if we're gonna talk about competition, then we need to make sure we're all on the same level playing field.

So that's first and foremost.

I think, secondly, many private schools cost more than $7,400 a year.

And so when we're talking about eligibility for a family of four that would be eligible for the full amount, that's $7,400.

We're talking about a family of four whose household income is less than $55,000 a year.

I think it would be, it really makes me pause to think about how many families whose household income is less than $55,000 a year who can afford a private school and also drive their children to school and also feed, you know, have the school lunch, school breakfast and lunch.

And so, you know, that's why I'm interested in better understanding who's availing themselves of the full spectrum of the Opportunity Scholarship.

- Dawn, I'll pivot to you.

Your team does a really nice job with education coverage.

I really thank you for your service in that area.

Opportunity Scholarships can be politicized as part of debate but what is the net effect on society if parents can take the school funding and pack it in their child's backpack and theoretically take it to the school they want that kid to be in?

- Right, that's how they talk about it.

I'll have to shout out our K-12 reporter, Keung Hui, who does a great job covering what it actually means on the ground in the schools.

You talked about competition.

Competition is great in a lot of things, but it's also not a business, right?

So if something's private, that's different than public, which is what our taxes pay for.

And so, are you educating just your child?

Yes, of course, if you're a parent, or you wanna use that money for private school, and you think about it that way with the backpack, but then there's also, how are my tax dollars going to educate the populace, right?

Like everybody, we all interact with each other all the time and public, private sector, and what do you want from the education they're receiving, too?

So I think that's a lot of what we see with the division on political lines is how Democrats and Republicans look at the role of taxpayer funded education and where should that go.

And I think Senator Bode's point is good about the free and reduced lunch and buses and who's taking advantage.

And if you're a household with $55,000, if it covers all of the tuition, if you are involved with schools at all, you know there's a lot more money than just tuition.

There's everything else involved in that.

But I think it's interesting to see how many people are interested in this.

They obviously like the idea of it.

A lot of people support it, and maybe they have the money now and they're like, "Well, I want to try out private school for a year."

And they'll see how it goes.

- Billy, how do public schools react to this?

Not this year.

It's too new.

It's shocking and it's politicized as this becomes normal procedure for education in North Carolina.

If you're public schools, what do you do?

- I think if I may add one thing that the public schools also have to do that these schools, the private schools don't have to do it.

They don't get to pick and choose who they're gonna teach.

So what tends to happen, because school choice isn't brand new.

There's a lot of research on this, and what tends to happen is the kids who are most expensive to teach, who take more time to teach usually are kids who come from poorer homes.

It tends to be kids who speak English as a second language, kids with disabilities.

They tend to get left behind in traditional public schools.

And I think it needs to be said as well that what's happening, I know this is exciting news for fans of school choice and people who wanna see these scholarships expanded, but it's not happening in a vacuum.

When you talk to educators right now, this isn't a statement of opinion.

There's not a single metric on which the public schools of North Carolina are not underfunded compared to almost every other state in the nation.

They are behind in almost, what?

Every way.

Teacher pay, per pupil funding, money that goes to construction of schools, which does matter.

And I think that what we're starting to see is every parent who has a kid in a public school knows what we are starting to see is that pain that they're having is not silent anymore because the buses aren't showing up sometimes, because your schools are calling you in the summer to ask to paint the building.

And it's not 'cause they're wasting the money.

You talk to educators, the money's just not there.

- For them.

Follow up, I wanna be honest with everyone that views my show and trusts me to host a show that they watch.

My wife works in public education or works with special needs children and she has said the same thing.

At the end of the day, parents with a car that are involved are gonna put their kids in the best school they can get in.

The kid deserves it.

Representative Winslow, as people with mobility do move out of public schools, take advantage of these opportunities.

Should opportunity scholarships work as advertised?

What's the budgetary conservative play to offset to say, look, there are kids coming in here that speak Spanish and they need to speak English eventually, or at least be dual lingual, and special needs children need a lot of attention and yes, they can be passed over by private schools.

How do you answer that as a policymaker?

- Well, I'll share with you, raised by a single mother, four kids.

I was the oldest in the family and we didn't have those, we didn't have the choices at the time.

My mother worked two and three jobs all the time and our form of education was we got report cards.

Thankfully they came in the mail then, so we had more time.

You didn't get 'em emailed automatically.

And when they come in and then, so my mother, the time she had to spend on our education was, you know, ground you, spank you, do better next time.

And so we would do well in the beginning and then hopefully we would make up for report cards.

With an opportunity scholarship, you know, my mother, if she had that chance where she could put us in a better school system, that she knew that our children, her children would do better, even though she worked three jobs, she would have found a way to make it happen through family, friends, or whatever else.

I have openly said that to our own school system that my concern is that we are going to leave those behind that are the most needy like me when I was growing up, right?

If my mother couldn't have done it, could the person next door that had a mother and a father in a household?

So it is a concern and it is something that we need to address.

At the same time, we have to quit treating public schools as if the way we've done it for the last century is the way we continue to do it.

We shouldn't just line our students up and tell 'em like, you must learn like this because we're all made differently.

And so if we're made differently, we should be provided opportunities where they can be taught differently based on their skillset and where they're at.

If you're doing very well in math, we should have a track.

You do very well in math.

You know, I'm a big proponent of trade schools.

If you can identify early on that you like mechanics, you like to weld or electrical, by the time you hit middle school or high school, you should be allowed to start playing with those things and working in those areas and focus on that.

It's like, my son last night, I'm working with math.

He's a math genius, but he's working on, you know, like trig and stuff that I've never seen before in 10th grade.

And he says, "Dad, I'm never gonna use this.

Tell me, in your life, have you ever used this?"

And I went, "No son.

But they tell me it's gonna make you better."

You know?

So we have to look at those things about what is absolutely necessary in education system.

- All right.

But so you do see a path forward for children with special circumstances for children that need to integrate as, 'cause there are new arrivals.

You think there's room there in policy to create this in a specter of public schools and competition.

- Right.

I just got through having this conversation.

Change is hard.

We do not like change no matter what it is.

We like things to stay the same all the time.

If we're willing to change and hopefully the opportunity scholarship and looking at alternatives for parents will force the change that we need in our school systems.

- And I wanna say, like I don't disagree at all.

I think disruption and innovation is really important, especially in education.

The stakes are high.

We're educating the future of our state and our country.

But I think it's this false narrative that it's either/or, I think we can fund our public education system and make sure that every child has a pathway to opportunity and also support school choice.

And so, you know, and that's incumbent upon us to make wise judgment calls about where taxpayer dollars are being spent.

But I really wanna push back against this, it's one or the other.

'Cause if it's really for the kids, we can find a way to do both.

- All right, I just wanna say we've got 90 seconds left.

Early voting is underway.

Early voting sites are active through March 2nd, then things will shut down.

And then March 5th is primary day in North Carolina.

Don't forget your ID rules are in effect.

36% of primary voters cast early ballots in 2020.

39% cast early primary votes in 2022, and there was no presidential primary call your local county elections board, if you have questions, last word, 30 seconds each.

Maybe one of you seeking reelection, one of you is not.

Why are you seeking reelection?

Because it's a lot of work and it starts right now.

- If you don't love it, you wouldn't be doing it.

So I enjoy serving the people, I enjoy being a part of it.

I'm disappointed that Senator Body is not gonna be serving with me.

We've been good partners, her in the Senate, and I'm in the house overlapping in districts, so I enjoy it.

I know she does too, so I hate to lose her.

- What are the challenges of being an elected legislator, at least in the Senate to go, hey, you know, it's not my turn next year.

I'm gonna do something else - Besides putting up with Representative Winslow.

No, representing Senate District 18 has been the biggest privilege and honor of my lifetime.

Just wasn't the right time for me and my family.

But really looking forward to hopefully running again at some point and really appreciate Representative Winslow and his partnership representing Graham County.

- So just to brag, just for right now, - Just to pause.

- And to think The eighth graders thought you made $200,000 a year in the state legislator.

[all laugh] I wanna thank you for watching us this week.

Thanks to our panelists, all of you who make the show very, very special.

[upbeat music] Email us your thoughts and opinions.

Our email address, as always is statelines@pbsnc.org.

And we'll read every email and share the nice ones and some of the mean ones too.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

I appreciate you watching.

We'll see you next time.

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