SUE: I AM SUE O'’CONNELL.

TONIGHT, TWO LEGAL SCHOLARS JOIN ME TO BREAKDOWN THE DOZENS OF CRIMINAL -- CRIMINAL CHARGES DONALD TRUMP WAS ARRAIGNED FOR EARLIER IN A MANHATTAN COURTROOM, AND WHERE THE CASE AGAINST HIM COULD GO FROM HERE.

LATER -- >> PEOPLE ASKED ME WHAT WAS THE AMERICAN STRATEGY?

THE AMERICANS DID NOT HAVE A STRATEGY.

SUE: AN INSIDE LOOK INSIDE THE NEARLY 20 YEAR LONG AFGHANISTAN WAR AND THE TUMULTUOUS U.S. EXIT THAT LEFT THE COUNTRY VULNERABLE TO A TALIBAN TAKEOVER, FROM THE SERIES "AMERICA AND THE TALIBAN ."

IT WAS BOTH HISTORIC AND INCREDIBLY ROUTINE WHEN A MANHATTAN JUDGE READ DONALD TRUMP THE 34 CHARGES AGAINST HIM.

FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST DEGREE, AND THEN THE FORMER PRESIDENT PLED NOT GUILTY TO ALL 34.

AFTER THE ARRAIGNMENT, THE COURT UNSEALED THE OFFICIAL INDICTMENT IN THE CASE, WHICH DETAILS EACH COUNT IN WHICH TRUMP ALLEGEDLY FALSIFIED RECORDS WITH "INTENT TO DEFRAUD AND INTENT TO COMMIT ANOTHER CRIME AND AID AND CONCEAL IN THE COMMISSION OF THAT CRIME."

WHAT EXACTLY IS THAT CRIME?

THE CHARGES DO NOT SPECIFY.

WE KNOW IT IS ALL IN RELATION TO ALLEGED HUSH-MONEY PAYMENTS MADE TO ADULT FILM STAR STORMY DANIELS AHEAD OF THE 2016 ELECTION, IN ORDER TO KEEP HER QUIET ABOUT AN ALLEGED AFFAIR, WHICH TRUMP STILL DENIES.

THOUGH IT DOES LIST A SERIES OF DOCUMENTS TRUMP IS CHARGED WITH FALSIFYING, INCLUDING VOUCHERS, CHECKS, BUSINESS LEDGERS.

FOR TRUMP HIMSELF AND A TRUST IN HIS NAME, AS WELL AS SEVERAL INVOICES FROM HIS FORMER ATTORNEY, MICHAEL COHEN, WHO PLED GUILTY TO HIS ROLE IN THE HUSH MONEY SCANDAL.

AND IT SERVED MORE THAN A YEAR IN PRISON.

JOINING ME NOW TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM THE UNSEALED INDICTMENT, ARE NORTHEASTERN LIGHT PROFESSOR AND GBH NEWS LEGAL ANALYST, DANIEL MEDWED, AND WESTERN NEW ENGLAND UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR, JENNIFER TAUB, WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF THIS GREAT BOOK "BIG DIRTY MONEY, THE SHOCKING INJUSTICE AND UNSEEN COST OF WHITE-COLLAR CRIME."

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

JENNIFER, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

WHAT IS YOUR HOT TAKE ON WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN SO FAR?

JENNIFER: MY HOT TAKE IS IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE ACTION, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE STATEMENT OF FACTS.

THE INDICTMENT IS VERY SPARSE.

IT JUST LISTS 34 COUNTS ALMOST VERBATIM, QUOTING FROM THE RELEVANT NEW YORK STATUTE.

.

IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE -- WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT TALKING INDICTMENTS, THIS IS A TALKING STATEMENT OF FACTS.

IT GIVES THE FULL CONTEXT IN MORE DETAILS ABOUT WHAT THE THEORY OF THE CASE ACTUALLY IS.

SUE: DANIEL, WHAT IS YOUR HOT TAKE?

DANIEL: TWO HOT TAKES.

THE FIRST IS A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW THIS IS POLITICAL.

IT IS NOT.

ALF AND BRAD DID NOT INDICT DONALD TRUMP.

GRAND JUROR'’S DEAD.

REGULAR CITIZENS IN NEW YORK ISSUED THIS INDICTMENT.

THE HOT TAKE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING HELL LOT -- HOW NOVEL THE LEGAL THEORY IS BEHIND THIS CASE.

IT IS NOT.

JENNIFER MAY HAVE A BETTER HANDLE ON THIS, SOMETHING LIKE 29 PROSECUTIONS FOR FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST APARTMENT, WHICH IS THE REGION OF NEW YORK THAT COVERS A MANHATTAN AND LOW BRONX SINCE 2009.

THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY AS POLITICAL AS SOME PEOPLE WOULD WANT FOLKS TO BELIEVE.

SUE: TO SET THE TABLE FOR FOLKS AT HOME, THE 34 LISTINGS, IT IS NOT 34 DIFFERENT CRIMES, RIGHT, JENNIFER?

JENNIFER: TECHNICALLY, IT IS 34 INSTANCES OF THE SAME TYPE OF CRIME.

SUE: SO HE SHOULD HAVE PAID WITH ONE CHECK INSTEAD OF 30 FORE-CHECKS.

[LAUGHTER] JENNIFER: TURNS OUT, WHAT IS INTERESTING THAT YOU FIND OUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATEMENT OF FACTS, IS IT WAS NOT JUST THE REIMBURSEMENT OF MICHAEL COHEN PLUS PAYING A TRUE UP SO HE DID NOT HAVE TO PAY TAXES ON THAT.

THERE WAS ALSO A PAYMENT TO A DOORMAN AS WELL.

THERE IS A LOT IN HERE, IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

HE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF ACTUALLY TELLING THE TRUTH, AND DOCUMENTING THESE PAYMENTS PROPERLY.

I HAVE TO SAY, I'’M NOT SURE THERE IS ANYWAY WAY THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION COULD HAVE LAWFULLY MADE THESE PAYMENTS.

AS YOU KNOW, CORPORATIONS CANNOT MAKE DIRECT CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS, EVEN AFTER CITIZENS UNITED.

SUE: DANIEL, I WANT TO DIG INTO THAT SO FOLKS UNDERSTAND.

THE CAMPAIGN -- CORRECT ME IF I'’M WRONG -- BUT THE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTION HERE IS THAT MICHAEL COHEN FIXED THE PROBLEM WITH THE MONEY OF STORMY DANIELS.

LIKE SOMETIMES IF YOU PAY FOR A RESTAURANT FOR A FUNDRAISER FOR YOUR FAVORITE CANDIDATE, THAT YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO EITHER.

THE CAMPAIGN VIOLATION HERE IS THE FIXING.

AM I RIGHT ON THAT?

DANIEL: THAT IS OPERATING UNDER ASSUMPTION.

WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS ABOUT HOW BARE-BONES THE INDICTMENTS, IS THIS CRIME FALSIFYING BUSINESS RECORDS IN THE FIRST DEGREE IN NEW YORK IS A FELONY, AND IT HAS TWO COMPONENTS.

YOU HAVE TO INTEND TO DEFRAUD SOMEONE BY FALSIFYING A RECORD, AND ALSO DO THAT IN ORDER TO EITHER PERPETRATE OR CONCEAL SOME OTHER CRIME.

MOST OF US, AND I WONDER WHAT YOUR TAKE IS ON THIS, ASSUME THAT THE OTHER CRIME IS SOMETHING RELATED TO CAMPAIGN-FINANCE.

A BE A FEDERAL CRIME, MAYBE NOT.

BUT WE DON'’T KNOW.

TECHNICALLY, THERE IS NOTHING IN THE INDICTMENT ABOUT CAMPAIGN-FINANCE CRIMES.

SUE: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

JENNIFER: I AGREE.

I WAS THINKING AND I'’M GLAD TO SEE IT, THAT THIS IS MORE.

.

ABOUT TAX EVASION YOU SEE SOME HINTS OF THAT IN THE STATEMENT OF FACTS.

YOU ALSO SEE -- WHAT IS COMPLICATED IS YES, THE HARM TO THE PUBLIC IS INTERFERING IN THE CAMPAIGN.

WE DEFINITELY SEE THAT IN THE STATEMENT OF FACTS.

I THINK THE DANGER THAT THE DA FACES IS BEING ADA, COUNTY DA, IN CHARGE OF ENFORCING STATE LAW.

THE QUESTION IS, CAN ONE OF THE UNDERLYING FELONIES THAT IS BEING FURTHER CONCEALED BE A FEDERAL CRIME?

I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT IS I THINK SO.

WE WILL SEE.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, THERE IS THE TAX EVASION.

WHAT SEEMS CLEAR IN THE STATEMENT OF FACTS IS ONE OF THE CRIMES THEY BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP WAS FURTHERING HIS FURTHERING THE CRIMES FOR WHICH MICHAEL COHEN, HIS LAWYER, SERVED PRISON TIME, AS WELL AS THE DEFERRED PROSECUTION AGREEMENT WITH AMI, THE OWNER OF THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER.

THIS STUFF IS INTERESTING, DESPITE MY DISAPPOINTMENT ON HOW THIN THE INDICTMENT WAS.

THE STATEMENT OF FACTS REALLY SPINS THAT, A LOT OF DIFFERENT POSSIBLE THEORIES.

SUE: I WANT TO STAY WITH YOU FOR A SECOND.

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE I KNOW WHO OWN BUSINESSES OR OUR CEOS HAVE BEEN POOH-POOHING THIS BEFORE SEEING IT, BEFORE IT WAS RE-RENOVATE HIS HOUSE.

I HAD NO IDEA.

THAT IS NOT THIS CASE.

SUE: DANIEL, LET'’S TALK ABOUT THE PUNISHMENT.

LET'’S PAUSE IT THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG CASE, EVERYONE SHOULD BUCKLE THEIR SEATBELTS.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED BY THE END OF THE WEEK.

I'’M HEARING SOME PEOPLE SAY A YEAR, A YEAR AND A HALF.

OF THINGS WILL COME DOWN THE PIKE.

LET'’S SAY DONALD TRUMP IS CONVICTED ON THESE CHARGES.

WILL HE SEE JAIL TIME?

DO PEOPLE TRADITIONALLY SEE JAIL TIME FOR THIS TYPE OF CRIME?

DANIEL: YES, SUE.

THE 34 COUNTS ARE ALL FELONIES AND ARE WHAT ARE WHAT WE CALL EE FELONIES, THE LOWEST FELONY IN NEW YORK.

THE SENTENCING RANGE ON THOSE IS OFTEN ONE AND A THIRD YEARS TO A FOUR YEARS IN PRISON.

HERE, IT IS POSSIBLE IN THEORY THAT SOME OF THESE COULD BE CONSECUTIVE SENTENCES BECAUSE THEY ARE SEPARATE CRIMES ON SEPARATE DATES.

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT HE COULD GET SENTENCED TO A TERM OF YEARS IN.

THEORETICALLY, IT COULD BE SIGNIFICANT.

SUE: WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS IN TERMS OF WHAT WE IN THE PUBLIC FIND OUT?

I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW TRUMP IS GOING TO HANDLE THIS, AND I KNOW HE WAS CHASTISED BY THE JUDGE REGARDING HIS BEHAVIOR AND THE THINGS HE HAS BEEN SAYING ON SOCIAL MEDIA IN TERMS OF THREATENING PEOPLE.

THERE IS A CONCERN THERE, WHICH I HOPE WE HAVE TIME TO GET TO.

WHAT WILL WE LEARN?

?

WILL EACH DECIDE TO GIVE US A NARRATIVE OF WHAT THE CHARGES ARE AND WHAT THEY MEAN AND WHAT THEIR DEFENSE IS AND THEIR PROSECUTION WILL BE?

OR WILL WE HAVE TO SIT TIGHT AND WAIT FOR THE TRIAL?

JENNIFER: I THINK THERE IS A THIRD CHOICE, WHICH IS ONE SIDE, DONALD TRUMP'’S SIDE, WILL SPIN THIS HOWEVER THEY WANT TO.

ONE THING WE SHOULD LOOK FOR PROCEDURALLY IS, I EXPECT, NOW THAT THE ARRANGEMENT -- THE ARRAIGNMENT HAS HAPPENED, THAT A NEW YORK CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, WE WILL SEE THE DEFENSE CHALLENGE THE INDICTMENT.

SUFFICIENCY GROUNDS, AS WELL AS SOME DEFECT IN THE GRAND JURY.

WE WILL SEE THAT.

IF THEY LOSE THAT CHALLENGE, THEY JUST HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE END OF TRIAL.

I DON'’T THINK THERE IS ANY INTERVENING APPEALS.

WE WILL SEE SOME MACHINATIONS, MAY BE SOME THINGS LIKE THAT.

I IMAGINE DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO DO WHAT DONALD TRUMP DOES BEST, WHICH IS RAISE MONEY, AND WASTE MONEY.

AND HE IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO TRY TO RAISE MONEY OFF OF THIS.

NEVERTHELESS, I THINK IT HURTS HIM, HIS CANDIDACY.

HE WILL CONTINUE TO RUN.

AND WE KNOW HE HAS RUN FOR PRESIDENT BEFORE.

LIFE WILL JUST CONTINUE ALONG IN THIS BIZARRE WAY THAT IT HAS FOR THE LAST, I DON'’T KNOW, SEVEN YEARS.

[LAUGHTER] SUE: I THINK THAT'’S GREAT.

THANKS, JENNIFER.

I'’M JUST GOING TO LEAVE NOW.

DO TO PROTECT FOLKS FROM THE DISTRUST THEY MAY HAVE FOR TRUMP'’S LEGAL TEAM, WERE FOR TRUMP HIMSELF?

DANIEL: IN TERMS OF JUROR SECURITY, ANONYMITY WILL BE THE KEY TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN PICKED FOR THE JURY IS ANONYMOUS AND NO ONE KNOWS WHO THEY ARE, SO THAT THEY CAN SPEAK THEIR MINDS WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOR.

THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THIS PROCESS COULD WORK.

YOUR POINT IS WELL TAKEN.

I THINK WE CAN FIND 12 IMPARTIAL CITIZENS TO SERVE ON THIS JURY.

DONALD TRUMP IS GOING TO TRY TO MOVE THIS.

I THINK THERE WILL BE A CHANGE OF VENUE MOTION.

HE WILL TRY TO MOVE THIS TRIAL OUTSIDE OF MANHATTAN, MAYBE TO A DIFFERENT COUNTY IN NEW YORK.

YEARS AGO, WHEN I WAS PRACTICING IN NEW YORK, THE INFAMOUS CASE INVOLVING THE PERSON SHOT AND KILLED IN THE BRONX, NEW YORK POLICE OFFICERS WERE CHARGED WITH THAT CRIME, AND IT WAS MOVED TO ALBANY.

SOMETIMES WITH THESE HIGH-PROFILE CASES, THEY CAN BE MOVED TO A DIFFERENT COUNTY.

I SUSPECT HE WILL TRY TO DO THAT.

IT IS HARD TO GET A CASE MOVED.

WE WILL FIND 12 FAIR AND IMPARTIAL JURORS.

SUE: OBVIOUSLY, WE WILL SAY IT, BECAUSE ON THE WHOLE, THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED.

WE HAVE A FORMER WHO HAS BEEN CRIMINALLY CHARGED.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS DONALD TRUMP WHO IS A BUSINESSMAN WHO HAS BEEN SKIRTING THE LAW, SKIRTING THE NORMS IN HIS PRIVATE AND PROFESSIONAL LIFE FOR DECADES, IF NOT SINCE THE MOMENT HE WAS BORN.

COMMON A CHARGE THIS CAN BE, AT THE STATE LEVEL.

I THINK MOST OF US, BECAUSE I HAVE STUDIED WHITE-COLLAR CRIME, I AM FOCUSED ON FEDERAL OFFENSES.

BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT ALSO TO BE AWARE OF THE LAWS IN LOCAL JURISDICTIONS AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT COUNTY PROSECUTORS ARE SERIOUS ABOUT PROTECTING THE PUBLIC.

AND PROTECTING THE TAXPAYERS FROM FRAUD.

SUE: AS WE WRAP UP, IS THIS EVIDENCE THAT THE SYSTEM HOLDS?

DANIEL: I THINK THAT IS THE HOPE.

THAT IS ABOVE THE LAW, AND THAT SOMEONE SHOULD FACE THE MUSIC FOR CRIMES THAT ARE, IN FACT, SUFFICIENT BASED ON A GRAND JURY ASSESSMENT TO GO TO TRIAL.

I THINK THAT IS A SIGN THAT MAY OUR SYSTEM IS UP TO THE TASK.

WE WILL SEE.

SUE: IN THE WORDS OF DONALD TRUMP, "WE WILL SEE."

THE ONE THING I QUOTE HIM ON ALL THE TIME.

JENNIFER TAUB, DANIEL MEDWED, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON YOUR HOT TAKES.

I'’M SURE YOU WILL BE JOINING US IN THE FUTURE.

APPRECIATE YOUR EXPERTISE.

THANK YOU.

DANIEL: WHY SHOULD THE UNITED STATES TRUST YOU?

>> I HAVE COME TO AFGHANISTAN TO MEET AND INTERVIEW NUMEROUS TALIBAN OFFICIALS.

MANY HAVE NEVER SPOKEN BEFORE.

THIS IS THE STORY OF HOW THEY WON THE WAR.

WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE IN AFGHANISTAN?

MARTIN: RIGHT AFTER 9/11, I WENT INTO THE PAKISTAN TRIBAL AREAS, JUST OVER THE BORDER FROM AFGHANISTAN.

DID NOT GO INTO AFGHANISTAN ON THAT TRIP.

WITH YOUR SUBJECTS IN AFGHANISTAN.

WHEN YOU RETURN NEXT TIME, HOW WOULD YOU PORTRAY WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU MAY HAVE HAD FOR EXPECTATIONS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR?

IT SEEMS A LOT OF THE FOLKS YOU TALKED TO ARE THE JADED SORT OF, WELL WE -- WELL, HERE WE ARE, THINGS ARE STILL HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO BUILD THE TRUST THAT YOU HAD A BOTH WITH THE TALIBAN IN TERMS OF NEGOTIATING WHERETRUST IN US.

PLEASED TO GLOAT ABOUT THEIR VICTORY.

UNDERSTANDABLY.

THE FIRST PART, AIRING NOW, YOU GO BACK AND TAKE A LOOK AT THE TOUR OF THE ORIGINS, NOT ALL THE WAY TO THE BACK ORIGIN STORIES OF AFGHANISTAN, BUT THE MOST RECENT ERA OF FORTUNE STORY.

IN THE 20 YEAR HISTORY OF THIS WAR, THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PREVENT THE TALIBAN'’S INSURGENCY FROM GATHERING FORCE AND DISRUPTING THE AMERICAN AND NATO PROJECT IN AFGHANISTAN.

THAT WAS PROBABLY THE MOMENT.

SUE: YOU DO MAKE THE POINT AS WELLTHEY HAD GIVEN SANCTUARY TO OSAMA BIN LADEN.

THE IDEA OF HAVING THEM AT THE TABLE WAS TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT.

THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE THINKING, IT IS CUSTOMARY AFTER A WAR TO INVITE THE VANQUISHED TO SIT DOWN AT THE TABLE AND HAVE A ROLE.

THE TALIBAN WANTED TO HAVE A ROLE, THEY WANTED TO BE HEARD.

HAVE THAT ROLE, NOT THE ROLE WE IMAGINED.

SUE: I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP ABOUT THE CHALLENGES WE ARE FACING NOW ABOUT WHO ARE THE PEOPLE TARGETED.

>> ONE THING I DON'’T AGREE IS THAT THE TARGET.

>> SEPTEMBER 5, 2019, TALIBAN CAR BOMB KILLS 10 AFGHAN CIVILIANS.

ANOTHER CAR BOMBING PROVINCE -- >> BUT WHO IS THE TARGET HERE?

>> >> IF >> YOU GO INTO A MARKETPLACE BECAUSE THERE IS A COUPLE OF SOLDIERS, IT IS GOING TO KILL WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

>> THIS WAS FIGHTING.

SUE: WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT WHERE THE PRIORITIES ARE FOR FOLKS WHO ARE IN DANGER?

MARTIN:.

WHAT IS THE STATUS FOR THE EVERYDAY PERSON WHO LIVES, THE STATUS OF WOMEN?

MARTIN: THE SITUATION WITH WOMEN, AS IT IS PRETTY WELL REPORTED, HIS GIRLS PAST PUBERTY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GO PAST SCHOOL, PAST THE SIX GRADE.

THERE IS NO EDUCATION FOR GIRLS OR EDUCATION FOR YOUNG WOMEN IN UNIVERSITIES.

WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO NOT GO OUTSIDE WITHOUT A MALE ESCORT, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO WEAR A FULL BURQA, THE FULL COVERING.

THEY DON'’T ALL OBEY THAT.

IN THE CITIES, YOU SEE WOMEN WHO ARE IN DEFIANCE OF THOSE ROLES.

THEY ARE NOT GENERALLY ARRESTED BUT THEY CAN BE, AND SOMETIMES ARE.

THAT IS A PRETTY GRIM SITUATION.

AS FAR AS LACK OF FOOD ANDI CAN'’T RECOMMEND IT ENOUGH, MARTIN SMITH, "AMERICA AND THE TALIBAN."

IT IS A THREE-PART SERIES, FRONTLINE, OF COURSE.

EXTRAORDINARY WORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

MARTIN: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SUE: FRONTLINE'’S "AMERICA AND THE TALIBAN" MEARS TONIGHT AT 10:00 HERE AT WGBH, YOUTUBE PAGE, AND ON PBS AT.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE WILL BE BACK TOMORROW.

I AM SUE O'’CONNELL.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.