WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

OUR TOPIC TONIGHT: 50 YEARS OF TITLE NINE.

IN 1972, CONGRESS PASSED, AND PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON SIGNED, TITLE NINE, AN UPDATE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF 1964 THAT BANNED DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SEX IN ANY SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER EDUCATION PROGRAM THAT RECEIVES FEDERAL FUNDING.

EVEN THOUGH ATHLETICS WASN'T DIRECTLY MENTIONED IN THAT LAW, IT BECAME A GATEWAY FOR SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES TO CREATE SPORTS PROGRAMS FOR WOMEN, INCLUDING MANY THAT HADN'T EXISTED BEFORE THAT HAD AN IMPACT ON MILLIONS OF AMERICAN WOMEN AND GIRLS.

ACCORDING TO THE WOMEN'S SPORTS FOUNDATION, BEFORE TITLE NINE, ONE IN 27 GIRLS PLAYED SPORTS.

TODAY THAT NUMBER IS TWO IN FIV TO DISCUSS TITLE NINE, WE'RE JOINED IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO CHRISTY THOMAS, HOST OF COUNTDOWN TO KICKOFF AND BBN GAMEDAY ON THE UK SPORTS NETWOR STATE SENATOR ROBIN WEBB, A DEMOCRAT FROM GRAYSON.

JENNIFER SMITH, LECTURER IN THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY SCHOOL O JOURNALISM AND FORMER SPORTS WRITER FOR THE LEXINGTON HERALD TODD ALLEN, GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUC AND KATHY DEBOER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE AMERICAN VOLLEYBALL COACHES ASSOCIATION.

QUAY DO WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU TONIGHT oh SEND US A QUESTION OR COMMENT ON TWITTER AT KYTONIGHT SEND AN EMAIL TO KYTONIGHT@KET.

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WELCOME TO OFF THE OUR GUESTS.

WE'VE GOT AFFUL HOUSE TONIGHT AND I'M SO GLAD ABOUT IT.

HAPPY BELATED TITLE NINE.

WE KNOW THAT THE ACTUAL ANNIVERSARY WAS JUNE 23rd.

WE HAD SOME OTHER COURT RULINGS THAT WE DEALT WITH IN THE MEANTIME.

WE'LL JUST PUT IT THAT WAY.

NOW WE WANTED TO TAKE SOME TIME TO TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

CHRISTY, WE HAD TALKED TO YOU ON JUNE 23RD ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF TITLE NINE AND I'LL COME BADGE TO YOU IN JUST A MOMENT.

BUT TODD ALLEN WITH THE KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, TITLE NINE DIDN'T REALLY, AS A SAID WITH EXPLICITLY MENTION SPORTS BUT THAT'S HOW WE CLOSELY ASSOCIATE TITLE NINE.

BUT IT DOES A WHOLE LOT MORE.

KIND OF GIVE US A BROAD STROKE OF WITH THAT TITLE NINE DOES AND INCLUDING SPORTS.

>> IT REALLY DOES.

IT'S SO MUCH MORE THAN ATHLETICS.

AS YOU MENTIONED, TITLE NINE PROHIBITS THE DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS SEX FOR ANY EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM RECEIVING FEDERAL FUNDS FROM THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT EDUCATION.

AND THAT ENSURES THAT THERE ARE EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES TO SCHOOLS, CLASSES, PROGRAMMING, TEXTBOOKS FOR STUDENTS IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

IT ENSURES THAT STUDENTS AREN'T TURNED AWAY AT THE DOOR IN A CERTAIN VOCATIONAL PROGRAM THAT MAY HAVE TRADITIONALLY BEEN THOUGHT OF FOR ONE SEX OR THE OTHER.

IT, OF COURSE, TOUCHES ATHLETIC AND HAS OVER THE COURSE OF YEARS.

IT ALSO VERY IMPORTANTLY PROHIBITS SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN THE WORKPLACE OR AMONG STUDENTS IN OUR SCHOOLS.

>> SO IF WE CAN GIVE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, IN 1970 U.S. MEDICAL SCHOOL INROLL WAS 9.6% FEMALE.

IF WE LOOK A 2019, U.S. MED SCHOOL ENROLLMENT WAS 50.5% FEMALE.

SO WE TALK ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF ADVANCES IN ATHLETICS, BUT IF WE LOOK IN OTHER AREAS WHERE REALLY WOMEN HAVE MADE GREAT STRIDES, DO YOU THINK IT'S ATTRIBUTABLE TO TITLE NINE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

THESE PROGRAMS, YOU KNOW, AND THE ASSURANCES THAT VARIOUS PROGRAMS HAVE TO GIVE IN EXCHANGE FOR THAT FEDERAL FUNDING THAT THEY GET FROM U.S. ED, THE POLICIES, THE PROCEDURES THAT THEY'VE IMPLEMENTED SINCE THE PASS.

>> Al Cross: TITLE NINE HAS ABSOLUTELY MOVED THE NEEDLE.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SPORTS IMPACT.

TODAY WOMEN MAKE UP 44% OF ALL COLLEGE ATHLETES.

THAT WAS COMPARED, CHRISTY, TO 15% BEFORE TITLE NINE.

SO I WANT TO GIVE A CHANCE FOR EACH OF YOU TO REALLY TALK ABOUT HOW TITLE NINE HAS MADE AN IMPACT ON YOUR CAREER, EVEN BEFORE YOU BECAME IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

WE KNOW THAT YOU WERE A BASKETBALL STAR.

BUT CHRISTY THOMAS, TALK TO US ABOUT HOW IT'S IMPACTED YOU, PERHAPS EVEN YOUR DAUGHTER IN THE FUTURE, AND YOU AS A SPORES CASTER.

>> YEAH, I HAVE A DAUGHTER WHO IS 12 AND SHE PLAYS SOFTBALL AND VOLLEYBALL, AND I WILL SAY AS I MENTIONED TO YOU ON JUNE 23rd, I'M NOTE SURE THAT I HAVE EVER KNOWN ANY DIFFERENT THAN ME BEING ABLE TO DO WHATEVER IT IS THAT I WANTED TO DO, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S ABSOLUTELY BUILT ON WHAT WOMEN BEFORE ME WERE ABLE TO DO.

I PLAYED A CAMPBELLSVILLE UNIVERSITY, PLAYED BASKETBALL DOWN THERE FOR A HALL OF FAME COACH WHO STARTED WOMEN'S BASKETBALL WITH NOTHING AT CAMPBELLSVILLE.

WHEN I STARTED PLAYING BASKETBALL AT CAMPBELLSVILLE,S DISASTER EXACTLY WHAT THE MEN HAD.

WE HAD EVERY OPPORTUNITY THEY HAD.

I THINK THAT PERSPECTIVE OF ME AS AN ATHLETE, I REALLY DON'T KNOW ANY DIFFERENT AND I THINK I STAND ON THE SHOULDERS OF ALL THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE ME AS A RESULT OF THAT, SO -- AND I'M THANKFUL FOR THAT.

AND I DON'T THINK MY DAUGHTER WILL KNOW ANY DIFFERENT, EITHER.

I HAVE A NINE-YEAR-OLD SON.

WE WILL NOT KNOW ANY DIFFERENT AND WILL NOT SEE ANYTHING DIFFERENT FROM ATHLETICS, AND I THINK THAT IS 100% BECAUSE OF SO MUCH WORK AND SO MANY ACTIVISTS AND SO MANY WOMEN WHO DID SO MANY THINGS TO GET US TO THIS POINT THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR ME I HAD AN INCREDIBLE INTERNS PLAYING IN HIGH SCHOOL -- EXPERIENCE GROWING ALL GROWING UP IN HIGH SCHOOL AND IN COLLEGE, AND IT'S THANKS TO THEM.

>> I WANT TO SAY THERE'S A CONNECTION HERE BECAUSE STATE SENATOR MAX WISE'S MOTHER WAS YOUR COACH.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

ONE OF THE BEST.

I MEAN, SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY ONE OF THE BEST.

BUT I WILL TELL YOU THAT OUTSIDE OF JUST BEING A REALLY GREAT COACH, SHE SAW SOMETHING, SHE KNEW THAT THIS SHOULD BE SOMETHING.

WE WENT TO EASTERN KENTUCKY AND DID A LOT OF GREAT WORK THERE AS A STUDENT, AND SO FOR HER AND WHAT SHE WAS ABLE TO DO AT CAMPBELLSVILLE UNIVERSITY REALLY IS AND WAS GROUNDBREAKING.

AND I'M THANKFUL FOR IT EVERY SINGLE DAY, THAT I COULD GO GET AN EDUCATION AND PLAY BASKETBALL AT THE SAME TIME AND ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT, AND IT'S BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE HER.

>> WELL, FOR THE RENAISSANCE WOMAN OVER HERE ON THE LEFT WHO HAS DONE A LITTLE BIT OF EVERYTHING, FEW PEOPLE KNOW YOU USED TO PLAY BASKETBALL BACK IN YOUR -- >> I TRIED TO BREAK GENDER BARRIERS ALL I COULD.

THEY WOULDN'T LET ME PLAY LITTLE LEAGUE SO I HAD TO BE A PITCHING COACH.

2S THE FIRST GIRL WHO INNATE TOURNAMENT BECAUSE I WAS TALLER THAN THE BOYS, AND, YOU KNOW, THE RURAL DISTRICTS, SOME OF THEM LIKE MINE KIND OF CAME IN KICKING AND SCREAMING TO COMPLY, AND WE PLAYED IN TRACK UNIFORMS OUR FIRST YEAR.

I STARTED AS A FRESHMAN AND PLAYED ON.

I WAS ON THE TRACK TEAM, HIGH SCHOOL TRACK TEAM IN THE SIXTH GRADE, HAD TO PRACTICE A LOT WITH THE BOYS, ENDED UP GOING TO STATE AND DOING ALL THAT, TOO, ON THE TRACK SIDE SO I SAW ON IT BOTH SPORTS, THE INEQUALITY AND THE -- IT WAS JUST FRUSTRATING.

WE PRACTICED WHOEVER WAS LOOSE, WHATEVER GYM WASN'T BEING USED, HOURS, ODD HOURS, ODD TIMES.

AND IT TOOK A WHILE FOR IT TO GET PARITY.

AND SINCE THAT TIME IN CARTER COUNTY WE HAVE HAD GIRLS STATE BASKETBALL AND HALL OF FAME COACHES, YOU KNOW.

AND ONE OF THE BEST PREMIER PLAYERS IN THE NATION IN SOFTBALL, AND WE DIDN'T HAVE A SOFTBALL TEAM.

SO I'VE SEEN IT.

AND I FEEL LIKE MY DAUGHTER, WHO IS A COLLEGIATE ATHLETE AT MIDWAY, PLAYED BASKETBALL, ALSO ENJOYED THE FRUITS OF THE STRUGGLE.

AND WHAT A STRUGGLE THAT IT WAS.

AND EVEN IN THE LEGISLATURE I THINK IT'S WORTHY TO NOTE CHEERLEADERS ARE GREAT ATHLETES, BUT IN THE YEARS I'VE BEEN THERE, 24 YEARS OR SO, THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL BILLS THAT WE'VE HAD TO PUSH BACK TO MAKE CHEERLEADING A SPORT.

THAT SOUNDS GREAT BUT WHAT THAT WOULD FOR IS UNDERMINE THOSE OTHER WOMEN PROGRAMS FOR TITLE NINE COMPLIANCE.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE TRIED TO BEAT BACK.

AND WE'RE NOT SEEING AS MUCH OF THAT NOW, BUT THAT CERTAINLY WASN'T ISSUE EARLY IN MY LEGISLATIVE CAREER.

>> JENNIFER SMITH, I WANT YOU TO CHIME IN HERE ABOUT THE IMPACT.

YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS.

NOW YOU'RE TEACHING.

>> IT IT'S SO INTERESTING, I KNEW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT TITLE NINE WHEN I STARTED E. MY SPORTS WRITING CAREER.

I KNEW THAT MY MOM WAS AN EXCELLENT SOFTBALL PLAYER AND THAT SHE PLAYED IN A BUNCH -- SHE PLAYED WITH BASEBALL PLAYERS AND SOFTBALL PLAYERS, AND THAT SHE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.

MY GRANDPARENTS, GRANDMOTHERS WERE VERY INTERESTED IN ATHLETIC AND DIDN'T HAVE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES, AND I ALWAYS DID, AND IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME AT THAT YOUNG AGE THAT IT WAS A BIG DEAL, BUT NOW I GOT TO CREATE A CLASS AT UK CALLED ISSUES IN 21st CENTURY SPORTS URGE JISM WHERE WE TALK ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT I HAD WISH I HAD KNOWN MORE ABOUT WHEN I STARTED MY SPORT WRITING CAREER, AND TITLE NINE IS A HUGE COMPONENT OF THAT, NAME, IMAGE, LIKENESS AND ATHLETE ACTIVISM.

WE TALK ABOUT SORT OF THE STRUGGLE THAT BOTH OF THESE LADIES WERE TALKING ABOUT, THAT THERE WAS SO MUCH BEHIND IT THAT YOU HAD TO LEARN.

AND I THINK WE'RE HELPING SHAPE FUTURE SPORTS WRITERS IN THAT WAY.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING IS I WAS NEVER -- I'M NOT A -- I'M NOT AS TALL AS THESE LADIES.

I'M 5'2" AND VERY SLOW.

BUT MY DAD COACHED ME NEVER SPORT.

MY MOM COACHED ME IN THE ONES THAT MY DAD DIDN'T, AND IT WAS PART OF OUR LIFE IN OUR FAMILY.

MY DAD WAS A SWIMMER IN INDIANA AND SPORTS WERE REALLY IMPORTANT IN MY FAMILY AND WE NEVER TALKED ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT DIDN'T EXIST UNTIL THEN.

BUT IT'S BEEN REALLY INTERESTING TO SORT OF LEARN IT ON THE FLY WHEN I WAS A SPORTS JOURNALIST BUT THEN TO ALSO, TO BE TEACHING PEOPLE ABOUT IT NOW AND SORT OF UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKS AND THE COMPONENTS OF IT THAT ARE SO IMPORTANT.

SO THIS NEXT GENERATION SORT OF KNOWS WHAT IT IS AND CAN REALLY TALK ABOUT ITS IMPACT IN A REAL WAY.

>> I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT NAME, IMAGE LIKENESS AND ATHLETE ACTIVISM.

I THINK THOSE ARE IMPORTANT POINTS.

BUT YOU WANT TO GO TO YOU MS. DeBOER.

I'LL CALL YOU KATHY ABOUT THIS I DIPLOMACY.

IT'S MORE ABOUT WHAT BALL CAN BE DRIBBLED, IT'S ALSO ONE ABOUT THAT CAN SERVED AND SPIKED.

AS VOLLEYBALL AFICIONADO IT OPENED ON THE DOOR NOT JUST TO PLAY BASKETBALL BUT OTHER SPORTS RISE TO PROMINENCE, WOULD YOU AGREE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK I'M THE SENIOR AT THE TABLE HERE TODAY, AND I GREW UP WITH TITLE NINE.

I GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL WHEN IT WAS PASSED.

AND SO WENT TO COLLEGE.

AND AT THAT POINT IN TIME THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN 25 ATHLETES AT MICHIGAN STATE.

WE JUST WENT FROM ONE SPORT TO ANOTHER, SO WE PLAYED VOLLEYBALL, THEN WE PLAYED BASKETBALL, AND WE EITHER RAN TRACK OR PLAYED ON THE SOFTBALL TEAM.

AND YEAH, THAT WAS A VERY, VERY DIFFERENT TIME.

THERE WERE NO SCHOLARSHIPS FOR WOMEN.

OUR COACHES WERE GRADUATE ASSISTANTS.

WE TRAVELED BY UNIVERSITY CARS.

WE WOULD DRIVE THEM.

THE COACHES WOULD DRIVE THEM ON THE WAY TO THE CONTESTS AND THEN THEY WOULD BE TIRED SO WE WOULD DRIVE THEM OH THE WAY HOME, YOU KNOW, THE MEAL MONEY WAS MCDONALD'S.

AND I WAS AT MICHIGAN STATE AT THE SAME TIME AS MAGIC JOHNSON, AND SO I SAW IN REALLY STARK RELIEF WHAT THE DIFFERENCES WERE BETWEEN WHAT WAS HAPPENING WITH THE MEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM AND THE WOMEN'S BASKETBALL TEAM.

AND, YEAH, AND SO MY ACTIVISM STARTED ALREADY IN THE 70S WHEN SEVERAL OF US ON THE BASKETBALL TEAM FILED AN ACTION AGAINST MICHIGAN STATE ABOUT TITLE NINE VIOLATIONS.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED SO MUCH ABOUT HOW INNINGS HAVE CHANGED AND THAT WOMEN TODAY -- THINGS HAVE CHANGED AND THAT WOMEN TODAY DON'T KNOW ABOUT TITLE NINE AND ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS.

I THINK THAT'S -- I THINK IT'S GREAT.

IT'S A EXAMPLE OF THE FACT THAT THE LAW HAS SUCCEEDED BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW -- >> THEY TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

>> THEY TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

WHAT?

YOU DIDN'T HAVE A TEAM?

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING.

BUT I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT IT'S DONE IS IT HAS LED US -- WE'VE DROPPED THE BALL TO A LARGE EXTENT BECAUSE THERE ARE STILL ALL KIND OF THINGS OUT THERE THAT ARE UNDONE.

>> SUCH AS?

>> PER TITLE NINE.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE SUCH FROM VOLLEYBALL.

FOOTBALL PLAYERS ARE ON CAMPUS ALL SUMMER LONG TRAINING, GETTING COACHING, ROOM AND BOARD, SUMMER SCHOOL, TUITION AND FEES.

VOLLEYBALL PLAYERS AREN'T ON CAMPUS ALL SUMMER LONG PAYING THEIR OWN WAY.

SOCCER, WOMEN'S SOCCER TEAM ON CAMPUS ALL SUMMER.

PAYING THEIR OWN WAY.

THAT'S A TITLE NINE VIOLATION.

VERY STARK.

>> SO ARE THEY HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT?

>> MAYBE.

>> AGAIN, ATHLETES NEED TO BE -- WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ATHLETE ACTIVISM.

ATHLETES NEED TO BECOME ACTIVISTS AGAIN.

WOMEN NEED TO SAY, THIS IS UNFAIR, AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH IT.

>> I THINK WE SAW THAT A LITTLE BIT -- I'M SORRY.

>> NO, NO, GO AHEAD.

>> I THINK WE SAW THAT A LITTLE BIT TWO YEARS AGO AT THE WOMEN'S NCAA TOURNAMENT, THE ORGANIZER WOMEN'S BASKETBALL PLAYER GETTING TO SHOW THE TIK TOK AND SHOW TO IT STUDENTS IN MY CLASSES SO THEY CAN SEE HOW THAT SPARKED OUTRAGE ACROSS MEDIA OUTLETS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND LED TO -- THERE I WAS USS TODAY LANDMARK STUDY LOOKING AT LANDMARK PROGRAMS AND HOW THEY SPEND THEIR MONEY AND IT WAS FASCINATING TO LOOK HAT THAT WITH MY JOURNALISM STUDENTS AND SAY THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF ISSUES WITH TITLE NINE.

A LOT OF STUDIES ARE SHOWING ONLY 20% OFFAL SCHOOLS ARE COMPLIANT, AND EVEN SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS ARE A LITTLE BIT -- THEY'RE NOT SURE THAT THE NUMBERS ARE BEING REPORTED ACCURATELY AT SOME SCHOOLS, THAT THEY'VE SORT OF LEARNED HOW TO DANCE AROUND THEM, SO THERE'S A LOT OF STORIES TO BE TOLD BY TITLE NINE THAT ARE BOTH GOOD AND BAD.

>> AND LET'S CLARIFY THAT DURING THE NCAA TOURNAMENT A COUPLE OF THE YEARS AGO THERE WAS A COMPARISON MADE TO THIS ELABORATE MEN'S LOCKER ROOM WORKOUT PLACE, AND THE WOMEN HAD A RACK OF WEIGHTS.

>> A YOGA MAT.

>> AND ALSO IT WENT INTO COVID THAT THE MEN WERE GIVEN PCR TESTS WHICH ARE GIVEN THE GOLD STANDARD AND DIAGNOSTIC TESTING FOR COVID BUT YET WOMEN WERE GIVEN THE RAPID ANTIGEN TEST WHICH CAN HAVE A HIRE LIKELIHOOD OF FALSE POSITIVES SO THERE WAS A WHOLE BIG KERFUFFLE OVER THAT.

HAVE THINGS CHANGED SINCE THEN, THOUGH?

DID IT MAKE PEOPLE SAY OKAY.

EVERYBODY WAS OUTRAGED WHEN IT HAPPENED BUT HAS IT CHANGED?

>> I THINK IT LED TO MORE REPORTING.

>> I THINK WE'RE IN A MOMENT.

AND SO AGAIN, I CAN SUES MY AGE AND STAGE TO SAY I'VE LIVED THROUGH A BUNCH OF MOMENTS.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN THINGS BECOME IMPORTANT, AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE LIVING IN A MOMENT WHERE THERE IS NEW INVESTMENT IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

THERE'S A NEW ATTITUDE THAT WOMEN'S SPORTS CAN CASH FLOW, THAT THERE IS VALUE HERE, THAT THERE IS AN AUDIENCE IF YOU'LL GIVE IT TO THE AUDIENCE, AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS, BUT I'M ALSO OLD ENOUGH THAT I KNOW YOU BETTER LEAN INTO YOUR MOMENT BECAUSE MOMENTS PASS.

>> I WILL SAY THIS ABOUT THAT WHOLE SCENARIO, TOO, AT THE NCAA TOURNAMENT IS THAT WITHOUT THAT YOUNG LADY PUT PUTTING THAT OUT ON THE NETTED AND TIK TOK AND TWITTER AND ALL THOSE PLACES THERE THAN THE WOO HAVE BEEN A THING SAID ABOUT THAT.

THE REPORTING IS AN ISSUE.

THIS YOUNG LADY WANTED TO TAKE A STAND TO SAY THIS ISN'T RIGHT, AND WITHOUT HER DOING THAT NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A KERFUFFLE, TO SAY THIS IS A HUGE DIPLOMA, AND THEN WHEN YOU START TO HEAR THE COMMENTS PEOPLE MAKE AS A RESULT OF HER PUTTING OUT THERE, MOST OF THEM, MEN WILL SAY THEY'RE NOT GENERATING THE SAME KIND OF REVENUE THAT MEN'S SPORTS ARE GENERATING.

THEY'RE NOT DOING THE THINGS THAT MEN'S SPORTS ARE.

THEY WANT THAT TO BE THE LEG THEY STAND ON.

>> IS THAT TRUE FOR FALSE?

>> I'LL SAY THIS.

>> SELECTIVELY IT'S TRUE AND FALSE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> MEN'S BASKETBALL MARCH MADNESS IS A BILLION DOLLAR PROPERTY THAT PAYS FOR EVERYTHING THAT THE NCAA DOES.

OKAY?

INCLUDING THE FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP AND FCS FOOTBALL.

IT PAYS FOR EVERYTHING.

BUT IN NCAA SPORTS, AND TODD KNOWS THIS, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ABOUT 60 PROGRAMS OUT OF THE 750 IN THE CNA NCAA, 60 OF THEM CASH FLOW, 10%.

BASKETBALL THE SAME WAY.

THERE'S OVER 1,000.

THERE'S ABOUT 60, LESS THAN 10% CASH FLOW.

SO THIS IDEA THAT COLLEGE SPORTS ON THE MEN'S SIDE IS SPINNING OFF ALL KIND OF MONEY AND ON THE WOMEN'S SIDE IT'S JUST A BLACK HOLE OF EXPENSES IN COLLEGE SPORTS IS EXPENSIVE AND ITS EXPENSES ARE ALL THROUGHOUT BE WITH MEN AND WOMEN.

SO NOW YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH ANOTHER ARGUMENT AS TO WHY YOU'RE GOING TO PUT MORE MONEY IN BASEBALL THAN YOU DO IN SOFTBALL BECAUSE NEITHER ONE OF THEM ARE CASH FLOWING.

>> AND ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING IN TERMS OF REVENUE IN THE NCAA IS SOFTBALL.

SOFTBALL IS ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING SPORTS IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH MONEY IT'S BRINGING IN, AND THAT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE EK THATTING NOTICE OF AS WELL TOO.

>> AND MONTANA FETUS IS MY CONSTITUENT AND SHE'S A BIG -- [LAUGHTER] BUT WHAT'S THE REAL PURPOSE I MEAN OF THE EDUCATION STRUCTURE AND WHAT WE'RE DOING TO EMPOWER OUR CHURN?

VERY FEW OF THESE FOLKS ARE GOING TO PLAY PROFESSIONAL ANYTHING.

BUT WHAT TITLE NINE HAS ENABLED IS FOR WOMEN TO PLAY ORGANIZED SPORTS, WHICH ALL THE STUDIES SHOW, FROM FORBES ON, AND YOU TAKE A SURVEY OF YOUR LEGISLATIVE LEADERS, YOUR OFFICE HOLDERS, YOUR CEOS, WOMEN IN HIGH-PAYING BOARD ROOMS IN HIGH-PAYING POSITIONS, I A MAJORITY OF THOSE EM WITH HAVE PLAYED ORGANIZED SPORTS.

SO DON'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM US.

THE PARITY HAS GOT TO BE THERE TO FULFILL THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT OF THE EDUCATIONAL OF THIS ACT AND MANY OTHERS IS FOR TRUE PARE THE PATRIOT AND OPPORTUNITY.

>> TODD, I WANT YOU TO JUMP IN THERE.

>> I TO WORK WITH ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY, NOT POST SECONDARY WHICH I ANY WE WERE DISCUSSING MOST OF, BUT THE FACT IS THESE ARE INSTITUTIONS RECEIVING FEDERAL FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

SO TITLE NINE APPLIES.

IT'S REALLY QUITE IRRELEVANT HOW MUCH MONEY ONE PROGRAM BRINGS IN VERSUS ANOTHER.

THEY'RE SCHOOL-SPONSORED PROGRAMS AND THEY HAVE TO COMPLY WITH TITLE NINE.

>> SO ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF TITLE NINE, ON JUNE 23rd I ACTUALLY TALKED TO SANDY BELL WHO IS AN, TOO, AT UK, ASSOCIATE ATHLETICS DIRECTOR THERE.

HERE'S WHAT SHE HAD TO SHARE WITH US.

>> THERE ARE LOTS OF PLACES WHERE I SPEAK, LOTS OF ROOMS THAT I AM IN WHERE I START THE CONVERSATION WITH "I'M PROBABLY THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS ROOM WHO COMPLETED HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE PRIOR TO THE PASSING OF TITLE NINE."

AND I HAD THREE BROTHERS, SO MY JOB WAS TO WATCH THEM PLAY.

THAT'S WHAT I DID.

SO NOW NOT ONLY GETTING TO SEE THESE YOUNG WOMEN HAVE THESE OPPORTUNITIES BUT BEING ABLE TO BE PART OF THAT AND TRAVEL WITH THEM AND ENJOY THEIR SUCCESSES WITH THEM, IT'S JUST ABSOLUTELY AMAZING TO SEE.

AND WE'RE GIVING THEM THESE ATHLETIC OPPORTUNITIES, BUT WE SEE IT LATER WITH THEM IN LIFE WHERE IT EMPOWERS THEM IN EVERY PART OF THEIR LIFE.

YOU KNOW, THEY BECOME A CEO AND RUN A COMPANY OR SOMETHING.

SO I THINK IT HAS VERY FAR-REACHING EFFECTS WITH OUR FEMALE POPULATION.

IT'S BEEN WONDERFUL.

>> TALK TO US ABOUT THE EXPANSION OF WOMEN'S SPORTS AT UK.

YOU CAN ATHLETICS.

AND EVEN A NEW PROGRAM THAT YOU'RE BEGINNING.

>> YES, I'M VERY EXCITED THAT.

I'M EXCITED ABOUT ALL OF THEM.

SO IN THE 1970s WHEN TITLE NINE PASSED, DR. SINGLETARY WAS OUR PRESIDENT AT THAT TIME, AND HE DECIDED THAT HE WOULD MOVE SEVEN OF THE WOMEN'S SPORTS THAT WERE CURRENTLY HOUSED IN CAMPUS RECREATION, WE WOULD MOVE THEM OVER TO THE ATHLETICS DEPARTMENT.

SO THOSE SEVEN SPORTS WERE WOMEN'S BASKETBALL, GYMNASTICS, VOLLEYBALL, CROSS COUNTRY, INDOOR TRACK, OUTDOOR TRACK AND TENNIS.

SO WE MOVED THOSE SEVEN OVER.

AND NONE OF US WERE HERE AT THAT TIME, BUT THAT WAS THE BEGINNING.

AND THEN A LITTLE LATER IN THE '70s WE ADDED WOMEN'S GOLF WHICH HAS BECOME A VERY SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM FOR US WITH WENT TO NATIONALS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

AND THEN IN 1983 WE ADD WOMEN'S SWIMMING AND DIVING, WHICH WON AN SEC CHAMPIONSHIP VERY RECENTLY.

WE ADD WOMEN'S SOCCER IN 1992.

SOFTBALL IN 1997.

AND WE JUST ADDED THE NEW EMERGING SPORT OF STUNT IN 2022.

>> AND TELL US WHAT THAT IS ABOUT.

>> IT IS AMAZING.

IT FITS THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY SO VERY WELL BECAUSE IT TAKES THE YOUNG WOMEN WHO HAVE SPENT YEARS AND YEARS TRAINING IN THE ATHLETIC SKILLS THAT GO WITH CHEER WITH, SO TUMBLING AND JUMPS AND PYRAMIDS AND STUNTS, ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT THEY LEARNED HOW TO DO WEEKS, BUT FOR SOME REASON EITHER THEY DECIDE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE A SIDELINE CHEER LEADER.

MAYBE THEY WOULD RATHER BE THE ATHLETE.

MAYBE THEY WOULD RATHER BE THE ONE ON THE FIELD.

OR DOES THEIR BODY TYPE CHANGE AND SO THEY DON'T GET THE OPPORTUNITY MAYBE IN COLLEGE TO DO THEIR SPORT.

SO ABOUT TEN OR 11 YEARS AGO THEY DEVELOPED THIS FOUR-QUARTER GAME.

IT'S AN ACTUAL GAME THAT UTILIZES THOSE SKILLS.

BUT TWO TEAMS COMPETE HEAD TO HEAD ON THE FLOOR AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME, AND SO YOU'RE BUILDING THE SAME THING, AND SO THE CROWD HAS A VERY GOOD IDEA OF WHO THEY THINK DID THAT BETTER.

AND THEN THE OFFICIALS MAKE THE DECISION, AND HALF OF THE PLACE AGREES AND HALF OF THE PLACE AGREES BUT IT'S AN AMAZING SPORT TO WATCH.

IT'S VERY COMPETITIVE AND IT'S GIVING A LOT OF YOUNG PEM W. WOMEN WHO EITHER HAD TO ABANDON THEIR SPORT AT A PARTICULAR POINT BEFORE THEY WENT TO COLLEGE OR HAD TO ADJUST, BECOME A GYMNAST, A DIVER, DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THAT'S NOT WHO THEY WERE, NOT WHAT THEY HAD TRAINED TO BE.

IT'S ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING SPORTS IN HIGH SCHOOLS RIGHT NOW AND MIDDLE SCHOOLS AND EVEN YOUTH PROGRAMS.

SO WE ARE REALLY EXCITED TO BE KIND OF LEADING THE CHARGE IN THE SEC.

WE ADDED IT LAST YEAR.

I'VE ALREADY HAD CALLS FROM FOUR OR FIVE SEC SCHOOLS ASKING ABOUT IT.

EVERYBODY IS EXCITED ABOUT HAVING SOMETHING NEW.

THE KIDS FEEL -- THEY'RE SO GRATEFUL FOR EVERYTHING AND ARE JUST REALLY EXCITED.

SO IT'S BEEN A GOOD EXPERIENCE FOR ME TO DO SOMETHING NEW, YOU KNOW, CREATE SOMETHING NEW.

>> WHAT DO YOU HOPE THE NEXT 50 YEARS WILL BRING FOR TITLE NINE?

IT'S SO HARD TO IMAGINE FROM WHENCE WE CAME SINCE 1973, '72 TO NOW.

HOW VAST IS THE OPPORTUNITY FIELD FROM THIS POINT ON?

>> I KNOW.

IT'S HARD TO EVEN IMAGINE WHERE WE GO FROM HERE.

I HAVE A 15-YEAR-OLD GRANDDAUGHTER WHO IS A VOLLEYBALL PLAYER, AND I WANT TO SEE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES STILL BE THERE FOR HER.

AND I THINK THEY WILL JUST GROW FROM THIS POINT FORWARD.

I THINK THE FOUNDATION HAS BEEN LAID AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE WORKED VERY HARD TO GET TO WHERE WE ARE NOW.

A LOT OF PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE.

AND I WANT THAT TO CONTINUE, AND I BELIEVE THAT IT WILL.

>> SO SANDY BELL, YOU JUST MADE KATHY DeBOER'S DAY BY SAYING THAT YOUR GRANDDAUGHTER WANTS TO BE A VOLLEYBALL PLAYER.

I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT NAME, IMAGE LIKENESS BEFORE WE GET INTO ANOTHER CRITICAL ISSUE AND IS THAT'S RELATED TO SB 83.

THAT WHAT IS THE BILL THAT THE LEGISLATURE PASSED, THE GOVERNOR VETOED BUT IT WAS OVERRIDDEN, THAT WOULD BAN TRANSGENDER ATHLETES FROM PLAYING IN GIRLS -- ON GIRLS' SPORTS TEAMS.

SO BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, NAME, IMAGE, LIKENESS.

CHRISTY THOMAS, HOW MUCH OF A GAME CHANGER IS THIS?

IN EQUALIZING.

WE LOOK AT PEOPLE LIKE ABBY STEINER AND RYAN HOWARD.

TALK ABOUT MEGA SUPER STARS THIS YEAR ALONE, THESE TWO WOMEN.

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY A GAME CHANGER JUST IN ATHLETICS, PERIOD.

IT'S CHANGING THE LANDSCAPE OF ATHLETICS.

I THINK WE ALL WANTED THIS.

YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO COMPENSATE ATHLETES IN SOME CAPACITY.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF THE WORK THAT STILL NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT HOW TO CONTROL THIS OR FIGURE IT OUT OR KIND OF LEVEL THIS THING OUT.

THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT'S GOING TO STILL HAVE TO BE DONE.

BUT I THINK FROM A FEMALE PERSPECTIVE WHEN YOU CAN SOMEBODY LIKE ABBY STEINER, LIKE RYAN HOWARD WHO ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE PAID WELL FOR WITH THAT THEY DO AND WHAT THEY CAN REPRESENT, I THINK ABOUT MONTANA FOUTS AND A YOUNG LADY LIKE THAT WHO SHOULD BE ABLE TO CAPITALIZE ON HERR NAME AND HER IMAGE AND HER LIKENESS.

SO I THINK ITS A GAME CHANGER, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE ABOUT HOW TO FIGURE THAT OUT AND HOW TO MAKE THAT A LITTLE MORE MANAGEABLE, I THINK.

>> THE LEGISLATURE TRIED, SENATOR WEBB, AND IT WAS EVEN SAID THAT WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE DON'T KNOW.

NOW WHAT IS IT YOU KNOW THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHEN YOU PASSED THAT LAW?

>> WELL, I THINK FOR ME IT TOOK AWAY THE CLANDESTINE, BACK ROOM, RUMOR MILL OF WHO IS DOING WHAT WITH WHO, AND IT LEGITIMIZES THE ATHLETE AND LEGITIMIZES THE SCHOOLS, AND THE FANS AND EVERYBODY INVOLVED, AND, YOU KNOW, THE DEVIL'S ALWAYS IN THE DETAILS, BUT I THINK THE BILL HAS ROOM.

THE PROGRAM, LIKE CHRISTY SAID, HAS TO EVOLVE AND IT'S GOT TO FIT.

ONE SIZE MAY NOT FIT ALL, BUT WE'VE GOT TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT'S EQUITABLE AND ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT TO SOME DEGREE TO RETAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THE ATHLETE AND THE SPORT AND EVERYBODY THAT LOVES THEM, AND THAT TO ME IS THE IMPORTANT THING.

>> BUT WHAT WE'VE CREATED, WE HAVE TO REALIZE WHAT WE'VE DONE.

THERE'S NOT A PROFESSIONAL LEAGUE IN THE WORLD THAT WOULD SURVIVE FOR FIVE YEARS WITH UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENCY, NO SALARY CAP EVERY YEAR EVERYBODY IS ABLE TO GO FROM ONE TEAM TO ANOTHER.

WITH NO LIMITS, WITH EVERYTHING BEING AN ANTITRUST ISSUE WITH THE NCAA, WE HAVE AN UNSUSTAINABLE MODEL THAT WE HAVE CREATED IN INTERCOLLEGIAL ATHLETICS.

AND MY WORRY IS THAT THE MINOR SPORTS, VOLLEYBALL STILL BEING ONE OF THEM, MEN'S MINOR SPORTS ARE THE ONES THAT ARE GOING TO REALLY SUFFER UNDER THIS BECAUSE THE MONEY THAT HAS BEEN USED TO FUND THE SWIMMING TEAMS AND THE VOLLEYBALL TEAMS AND THE SOFTBALL TEAMS AND THE BASEBALL TEAMS WAS EXCESS PROFITS COMING FROM SOME OF THE MEDIA THAT WAS AROUND SOME OF THE PROFIT PRODUCERS.

THAT MONEY NOW GOES TO THE ATHLETES.

NOBODY IS OPPOSED TO THAT.

THE PROBLEM IS HOW DO YOU NOW SUSTAIN THESE OTHER SPORTS.

AND HOW DO YOU SUSTAIN INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS AND KEEP IT FROM JUST G8 A SMALLER AND SMALLER AND SMALLER GROUP WITH BIGGER AND BIGGER AND BIGGER PIECES OF THE PIE.

>> AND IF DATA IS GOING TO BE USED -- YOU'VE GOT TO KIND OF HAVE THE DATA TO CRAFT SOMETHING THAT MEETS THOSE GOMES, GOALS, AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT WE LOOK INTO THAT AND CORRECT THE TRAJECTORY, IF YOU WILL.

>> TODD ALLEN, IS THERE ANY ROOM FOR YOU IN THIS CONVERSATION WHEN IT MOMS TO NAME, I AM WEEK LIKENESS?

BECAUSEY WOO 23 KNOW THIS IS HAPPENING WITH KIDS IN MIDDLE SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL.

>> WE'RE A LITTLE UNCERTAIN AS TO THE IMPACT IT WILL HAVE ON KIDS IN MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL, UNSURE, I THINK, THAT ISN'T HAPPENING MAYBE TO THE SAME EXTENT THAT IT'S HAPPENING AT THE POST-SECONDARY LEVEL.

SO A LITTLE BIT UNCLEAR AT THIS POINT HOW THAT MAY IMPACT STUDENTS, PARTICULARLY AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL.

BUT INTERESTED TO SEE HOW THAT PLAYS OUT.

I THINK THERE ARE SPECIFIC PROVISION IN THE LAW OBVIOUSLY THAT THEY CAN'T BE ASSOCIATE SPECIFICALLY WITH THEIR SCHOOL AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL WHENEVER THEY MAY PROFIT ON THEIR NAME, IMAGE AND LIKENESS.

>> I CAN TIE NIL AND TITLE NINE TOGETHER IN A NEAT LITTLE BOW.

>> PLEASE.

>> ONE THEFTINGS WE TALK ABOUT IN THAT CLASS IS HOW THERE'S A NINETY NOT NOW BECAUSE OF NIL AND TITLE NINE.

IF SCHOOLS START THERE ARE THESE EK CLIMATE CURRICULUMTIVES LIKE THE UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE HAS THIS COLLECTIVE BOOSTERS THAT ARE POOLING THEIR MONEY TO BRING IN $9 MILLION QUARTERBACKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

IF SCHOOLS ARE FACILITATING THOSE IN ANY WAY, THEY MIGHT BE IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

IF THE MEN'S TEAMS ARE GETTING BOOSTS FROM BOOSTERS IN THAT SORT OF WAY, YOU COULD SEE WOMEN'S TEAMS WHO ARE NOT GETTING THE SAME UNDER NIL.

YOU COULD SEE THEM SUE UNIVERSITIES TO TRY TO GET ACCESS TO THAT.

IT CREATES A WHOLE NEW SORT OF DYNAMIC IN THAT WAY TOO.

>> DID THE LEGISLATION ADDRESS THAT, SENATOR WEBB?

>> I DON'T RECALL SPECIFICALLY, IT CHANGED SO MUCH, BUT IT CERTAINLY IS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS TO ME.

I MEAN, THOSE ISSUES ARE VERY IMPORTANT, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THE COURT NEEDS TO DIRECT AND GUIDE US, SO SOMETIMES LITIGATION IS A GOOD THING ALONG THOSE LINES, AND IT MAY BE NECESSARY.

>> IS IT TOO LATE WITH KATHY DeBOER, FOR THE NCAA TO STEP IN HERE?

>> YES.

>> IT IS TOO LATE.

>> YES.

THE AUSTIN CASE THAT PASSED ABOUT A YEAR AGO PRETTY MUCH DECLAWED THE NCAA FROM PASSING FEDERAL REGULATIONS OR REGULATIONS THAT WOULD GOVERN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, SO IT SAID YOU CANNOT REGULATE THESE THINGS.

THESE ARE ANTITRUST VOICES.

AND IT WAS THE THIRD OR FOURTH TIME THAT THE NCAA HAD LOST AT THIS LEVEL, AND IT WAS A 9-0 DECISION WRITTEN BY GORSUCH, CAVANAUGH PENNED A VERY STRONG CONCURRING OPINION THAT SAID DON'T I TRY IT, DON'T COME BACK TO US.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S TOO LATE FOR THE NCAA.

>> BUT THERE COULD BE A NATIONAL LAW.

COULD CONGRESS STEP IN?

>> IT COULD HAVE TO COME FROM CONGRESS.

>> WOULD THAT PLEASE YOU?

WOULD YOU FAVOR THAT?

>> I MEAN, I THINK IT'S THE ONLY WAY FOR US TO DO THIS BECAUSE RIGHT NOW KENTUCKY HAS A LAW AND LOUISIANA HAS A LAW AND TENNESSEE HAS A LAW, AND SO YOU CAN'T -- THERE'S NOT ANYWAY TO HAVE NATIONAL COMPETITIVE EQUITY WHEN EVERYBODY'S PLAYING BY A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES.

>> YEAH.

ANYBODY DISAGREE WITH THAT?

>> HERE'S WHAT I WILL SAY.

IS THERE'S NOT ANYONE SITTING ON THIS PANEL TO THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE ATHLETES SHOULD HAVE SOME SORT OF BENEFIT IN SOME WAYS.

I THINK WE ALL, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BREYNN AN ATHLETE AND YOU'VE PLAYED AND YOU THINK WOULDN'T THAT BE NICE, EVEN HOW SMALL SOMETHING SHOULD BE OR COULD BE, THERE'S NOT ANY OF US THAT DON'T THINK THAT ATHLETES SHOULD -- >> IN JOURNALISM YOU CAN GET PAID FOR FREELANCE GIGS.

WHY IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT?

>> EXACTLY.

THAT'S THE THING.

IT HAS TO BE WITHIN REASON.

IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE NCAA NOT TO GET ON A WHOLE TOPIC OF TRANSFERS AND THAT'S A MESS IN THE TRANSFER WITH THE NCAA BUT IT'S ANOTHER DECISION THAT WAS MADE WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO HELP THE ATHLETE ABOUT IT WENT TOO FAR.

WHERE IS THE MIDDLE GROUND.

>> NOW THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT DOING AWAY WITH SCHOLARSHIP LIMITATIONS.

THEORY TAKING THOSE OUT.

WHY?

BECAUSE OF ANTITRUST RISK.

I DON'T MEAN TO GET IN YOUR SAND BOXED THERE, TODD, BUT IT'S ALL ANTITRUST, ANTITRUST.

>> SO CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO THIS ANTITRUST RISK?

>> WELL, I CAN TAKE A SHOT AT IT.

[LAUGHTER] WE HAVE A SITUATION THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN WELL EXPLAINED WHERE YOU'VE GOT A SITUATION WHERE ATHLETES, THEIR NAME, IMAGE AND LIKENESS WAS ALREADY BEING SOLD FOR -- MONEY WAS GOING IN SOMEONE'S POCKET, AND THERE'S A QUESTION ABOUT WHY SHOULDN'T IT GO INTO THE ATHLETE'S POCKET, THAT WE ALL CAN TEND TO AGREE THAT IT MAY BE A GOOD THING FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO IF THINK IT IS IT'S THEIR OWN NAME, AND IMAGE AND LIKENESS TO MAKE SOME MONEY OFF OF IT, BUT, OF COURSE, EVERYTHING DEPEND ON UNIQUE FACT AND CIRCUMSTANCES WHENEVER WE LOOK AT THESE TYPES OF SITUATIONS.

SO THE ISSUE THAT MS. DeBOER BROUGHT UP IS I THINK A REALLY VEL REM VANT ONE AND HOW THAT IMPACTS OTHER SPORTS PROGRAMS THAT ARE OPERATED BY UNIVERSITIES SPECIFICALLY.

AT THE ELEMENTARY AND POST-SECONDARY LEVEL, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH PROFITABILITY WAS OCCURRING WITH THOSE SCHOOLS, PUBLIC SCHOOLS, FOR EXAMPLE.

I'M NOT REALLY AWARE OF THAT SO I'M NOT SURE IT'S SO MUCH OF AN ISSUE AT OUR LEVEL AS IT IS AT THE POST-SECONDARY ONE.

>> SO THAT IS TO BE CONTINUED -- >> THAT TO ME TIES INTO THE SAME THING.

>> I STUMBLED OVER YOU.

REPEAT WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

>> WHAT COMES TO MIND IN ELEMENTARY AND HIGH SCHOOL IS RECRUITING, SO THEN YOU GET A BENEFIT.

IT MIGHT BE SOMEBODY GETTING A JOB.

JUST HISTORICALLY RECRUITING KIND OF TIES INTO THAT TO ME TOO.

>> SO THERE IS AN ISSUE IN THE WOMEN'S SPORTS ASSOCIATION THAT I MENTIONED EARLIER HAD ISSUED A REPORT, 50 YEARS OF TITLE NINE, LIKE WHERE ARE WE?

AND WE'RE NOT DONE YET.

THAT'S KIND OF THE SUB TITLE OF IT.

AND ONE OF THE ISSUES THEY DID BRING UP IS FOR STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES AND ALSO TRANSGENDER, NON-BINEBINARY, NON-GENDER CONFORMING.

WE KNOW THERE WAS A LAW SB YEA THAT BANNED TRANSGENDER ATHLETES FROM PARTICIPATING ALL O.

ALL GIRLS SPORTS TEAMS.

YOUR PERSPECTIVE ABOUT THIS.

YOU GAVE A PRETTY ELOQUENT FLOOR SPEECH ABOUT THIS.

>> I DIDN'T REALLY 19 TO, BUT AS A FEMALE FLEET AND HAVING TO ENDURE THE STRUGGLE THE IN BEGINNING OF TITLE NINE AND KNOWING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT BEING AN ATTORNEY AND KNOWING THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT, TOO, WHICH MEANS A LOT TO ME OF TITLE NINE AND SOME OF THE HEARINGS AND THE PURPOSE WAS FOR WOMEN.

I GIVE A WHOLE LOT OF CREDENCE TO THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH.

SO LEGISLATIVE INTENT, HEARING DISCUSSION AND EVERYTHING MEANS A LOT TO ME.

AND I FEEL LIKE THIS WAS A CONGRESSIONAL INTENT ISSUE.

THE LAW WAS PRETTY CLEAR, PRETTY SUCCINCT, SO MANY WORDS, BUT CERTAINLY TO ADDRESS -- EXECUTIVE ORDERS HAVE FRIED TO ACCOMMODATE SOME OF THOSE ISSUES.

I THINK IT'S A LEGISLATIVE ISSUE.

I THINK CONGRESS WOULD NEED TO CLARIFY THAT.

THAT WOULD BE MY INCLINATION.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE JUST INHERENT ISSUES THAT ARISE.

I THINK WITH TRANSGENDER ATHLETES AT THIS TIME WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WHAT IFS, IF YOU WILL, NOT SAYING THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM HERE IN KENTUCKY, BUT A LOT OF WHAT IFS IN WATCHING THE OTHER STATES EVOLVE AND POLICIES EVOLVE.

BUT CERTAINLY IT JUST -- >> HOW DID YOU VOTE ON THIS?

>> OH, I VOTED IN SUPPORT OF THE BILL.

AS A FEMALE, LIKE I SAID, I JUST COULDN'T -- MY DAUGHTER CAME TO MIND, AND WITH THAT WOULD BE AN ADVANTAGE OF A BIOLOGICAL MALE TAKING HER SPOT ON THE SCHOLARSHIP TEAM OR IN HOW YOU WOULD SIT CRITERIA TO ENSURE SOME RATIONAL PARITY, IF YOU WILL.

>> BUT THE BILL STATED FROM MIDDLE SCHOOL TO COLLEGE, BUT THE NCAA SETS THE RULES FOR COLLEGE, SO IN EFFECT THE BILL DOESN'T REALLY AFFECT CLEANING THAT THE SPORTS, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> SO WHY WAS IT THERE?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

THE BILL WENT THROUGH SOME CHANGES, LIKE IT ALWAYS DOES, AND I THINK IT WAS MORE OF A MESSAGE OR AN INTENT.

>> SO WHAT KIND OF MESSAGE OR INTENT DO I GET FROM THAT, KATHY?

>> WELL, THIS IS A REALLY HARD ISSUE.

WE ARE CONFLATING GENDER AND BIOLOGICAL SEX.

TRANSGENDER, I HAVE SEVERAL FRIENDS WHO HAVE TRANSGENDER CHILDREN.

THESE ARE -- THIS IS REALLY TROUBLING FOR THEIR PARENTS, FOR THE KIDS.

THIS IS A STRUGGLING TIME.

ANYBODY WHO HAS RAISEDY TEENAGERS, IT'S VERY TOUGH.

AND TO SEE THESE KIDS SINGLED OUT IS VERY, VERY PAINFUL.

HAVING SAID THAT, BIOLOGICAL SEX IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM GENDER BEHAVIOR.

AND -- >> CAN YOU TELL ME MORE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WHAT I MEAN BY IT IS THAT A BODY THAT GOES THROUGH PUBERTY AS A MALE IS GOING TO HAVE A LARGER HEART, GOING TO HAVE A DIFFERENT HAMSTRING-TO-QUAD RATIO, GOING TO HAVE MORE LEAN MUSCLE MASS.

THIS IS BIOLOGICAL.

GENDER IS BEHAVIOR.

IT'S HOW I PRESENT TO THE WORLD.

IT'S HOW I SEE.

AND IT'S MUCH MORE MALLEABLE THAN BIOLOGICAL SEX.

AND I THINK WE JUST -- WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

I WILL ALSO SAY THAT RIGHT NOW THE DATA SAYS THAT ABOUT ONE IN 250 ARE TRANS.

THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY SMALL PERCENTAGE.

NOW WE'RE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO TRY TO BE ATHLETES, WHO WANT TO BE ATHLETES, AND IT'S ONLY AN ISSUE ON THE MALE-TO-FEMALE SIDE.

NO ONE'S WORRYING ABOUT THIS WITH GIRLS THAT ARE TRANSITIONING TO BOYS.

AND SO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS REALLY, REALLY SMALL, AND I WANT US TO BE COMPASSIONATE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LAW PASSED IN KENTUCKY ON THIS?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I'LL LET SENATOR WEBB HANDLE THAT.

>> SHE ALREADY ANSWERED.

>> HER STATEMENTS KIND OF GO BACK TO THE LANGUAGE OF -- THE DEFINITION OF SEX, AND IT'S SET FORTH CLEARLY.

IT'S BASED ON SECONDS, SECONDS AND DISCUSSIONS IN THE HEARING WAS FOR WOMEN AND BIOLOGICAL, SO THAT'S LEGISLATIVE INTENT.

TO ME THAT'S PLANE MEANING.

NOW, IF NEACE GOING TO BE CHANGED, THEN CONGRESS NEEDS TO DO THAT BECAUSE IT'S A FEDERAL BILL.

SO I'M SORT OF TECHNICAL.

I GET HUNG UP ON ALL THAT.

BUT THAT WAS -- INFLUENCED ME A GREAT DEAL BECAUSE OF THE BIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES AND THE POTENTIAL PREJUDICE, ONCE AGAIN, TO BIOLOGICAL WOMEN, THAT THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO PREVENT.

>> TODD ALLEN, CAN YOU CHIME IN HERE AS LEGAL COUNSEL.

>> SURE.

WELL, I THINK FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE WE'LL PROBABLY BE TALKING ABOUT AND ANSWERING THIS QUESTION FOR SOME TIME TO COME AS THESE MATTERS WORK THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM AND MAKE THEIR WAY UP LIKELY ULTIMATELY TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT FOR A DECISION.

THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION BACK IN JULY OF LAST YEAR, I BELIEVE, ISSUED A TITLE NINE INTERPRETATION INDICATING THAT THEY WOULD INTERPRET TITLE NINE TO PROTECT TRANSGENDER STUDENTS.

THAT WAS CHALLENGED AND JUST FRIDAY A DISTRICT COURT IN TENNESSEE ENTERED A TEMPORARY INJUNCTION ON THAT MATTER, BUT IT WAS A PROCEDURAL ISSUE THAT IT WAS STRUCK DOWN, NOT A SUBSTANTIVE ONE.

I THINK WE'LL CONTINUE TO SEE THIS ISSUE COME UP AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THE CONTEXT OF TITLE NINE UNTIL IT WORK ITS WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT.

WE HAVE SEEN CASES IN OTHER STATES, WEST VIRGINIA, I HAD HOE I BELIEVE IT PASSED SIMILAR LAWS WHERE COURTS STRUCK THOSE DOWN, FEDERAL COURTS DID.

THERE'S ALSO MORE THAN JUST THE TITLE NINE QUESTION.

THERE'S ALSO THE U.S.

CONSTITUTIONAL EQUAL PROTECTION QUESTION.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT THOSE PREVIOUS COURTS ULTIMATELY RESTED ON.

SO THIS IS A MATTER THAT IS ONGOING AND WILL CONTINUE TO SEE MORE LITIGATION AROUND THE COUNTRY OUT OF THIS.

>> JENNIFER SMITH, HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

>> I SORT OF FIND MYSELF SIDING WITH KATHY A BIT IN THAT WE'RE LITIGATING A LOT OF WHAT IFS RIGHT NOW AND I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH PEOPLE, ACTUAL PEOPLE TO DISCUSS ABOUT THAT ACTUALLY FIT INTO THIS CATEGORY.

I THINK A LOT -- >> SO IS IT PREMATURE?

IS IT A SOLUTION LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM?

>> I FELT THAT WAY TO ME IN A LOT OF WAYS.

BUT I ALSO, A FORMER SPORTS WRITER WITH FIND MYSELF THING THE THING THAT GETS TOSSED ABOUT IS THIS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, DOES THIS CREATE A MORE LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

MY CONCERN IS SPORTS IS BUILT AROUND NOT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD PUNCH BRITTANY GREINER PLAYING AGAINST 5'5" WOMEN.

THERE ARE PEOPLE ALL AROUND IN ATHLETICS YOU HAVE COMPETITIVE SURPPASSING IN LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

I ALSO SORT OF LOOK AT THE LEAH THOMAS SITUATION.

>> TELL US ABOUT WHO LEAH THOMAS IS?

PENN SWIMMER, COMPETED ON THE MEN'S SWIMMING PROGRAM AT PENN FOR I THINK THREE SEASONS, TOOK TWO -- OR A SEASON OFF TO FINISH THE HORMONE REPLACEMENT, THEN COMPETED AS A WOMAN HER FINAL YEAR COMPETITIVE SWIMMING.

SHE WAS THE FIRST TRANSGENDER TO WIN AN NCAA EVENT I THINK INDIVIDUAL EVENT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IF INTERESTING THING THAT NOBODY TALKS ABOUT TO ME IS SHE FINISHED FIFTH OR SIXTH IN ABOUT FIVE OR SIX OTHER EVENTS.

IN HER LAST COMPETITIVE RACE SHE FINISHED LAST.

SO THERE ARE THESE, YOU KNOW -- THERE'S THIS WHOLE COMPETITIVE EDGE, THIS LEVEL PLAYING FIELD DISCUSSION, AND I'M NOT SURE THAT IT GETS INVOLVED.

I MEAN, ANOTHER THING IS AT THE OLYMPIC LEVEL YOU'RE LOOKING AT PEOPLE LIKE LAUREL HUBBARD WHO I WAS WEIGHT LIFTER FROM NEW ZEALAND AND EVERYONE WAS LIKE, OH, THIS TRANSGENDER PERSON WHO IS COMPETING AGAINST WOMEN USED TO BE A MAN, SHE DIDN'T WIN ANY EVENTS.

SO I THINK IT IS IN A LOT OF WAYS SORT OF A PROBLEM THAT HASN'T REALLY OCCURRED YET.

WE'RE LEGISLATIVE A LOT OF WHAT IFS.

>> CHRISTY THOMAS, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?

>> RENEE, YOU FALL RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS AND I KNOW THATES A TERRIBLE ANSWER, AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE I DO SEE LOTS OF SIDES OF THIS.

THE HUMAN SIDE OF ME WANTS TO BE COMPASSIONATE AND ABSOLUTELY, AND I AM.

MY HEART GOES OUT TO KIDS AND CHILDREN.

>> DO YOU DRAW A LINE WITH MIDDLE SCHOOL VERSUS THE COLLEGIATE LEVEL?

>> I DO THINK IT'S DIFFERENT IN THE COLLEGIAL LEVEL.

I THINK BY TIME A CHILD WITH MAYBE EVEN THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL, BY THE TIME A CHILD HAS HIT PUBERTY IT'S A DIFFERENT BALLGAME FOR AN ATHLETE.

THERE IS A PART OF ME THAT REALLY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT A YOUNG PERSON IS GOING THROUGH IN A SITUATION LIKE AND AND TO WANT COMPASSION AND TO BE COMPASSIONATE IN THAT SITUATION.

THE OTHER PART OF ME IS THE ATHLETE WHO IS PLAYING HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS, PLAYING HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL, PLAYING COLLEGE BASKETBALL, AND I DON'T WANT SOMEONE -- I DON'T WANT TO FEEL SOMEONE HAS AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE OVER ME, AND I WILL SAY THIS.

WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, WE USED TO BRING IN THE JV BOYS TO PRACTICE AGAINST US, AND WE DID THAT FOR A REGION.

THEY DO THIS AT THE COLLEGIATE LEVEL.

WOMEN'S TEAMS PRACTICE PURPOSEFULLY AGAINST MEN, THEY HAVE A MEN'S PRACTICE SQUAD AND THEY DO THAT FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

THEY'RE FASTER.

THEY'RE STRONGER.

THEY CAN JUMP HIGHER.

SO THERE ARE -- THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAPPEN BECAUSE WE -- LISTEN.

WE'VE GONE TO PRACTICES AND WATCHED GIRLS KICK THEIR TAILS.

WE KNOW THAT HAPPENS.

BUT THERE'S A REASON WHY THEY'RE CHOOSING TO DO THAT, AND THERE'S ALSO A REASON WHY WE'RE SEEING THIS GO ONE WAY AND NOT THE OTHER WAY.

WE SEE MALES BECOMING FEMALES IS THE BIGGER ISSUE.

TO KATHY'S POINT, WE ARE NOT HEARING ISSUES ISSUES OF MALES TRANSITIONING TO FEMALES AND THAT BECOMING AN ISSUE.

WE'RE NOT SEEING THAT HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

ONE SIDE, THE HUMAN SIDE OF ME WANTS TO EXTEND THAT COMPASSION AND ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND.

THAT'S HEARTBREAKING THAT YOU WANT TO COMPETE AND PERHAPS IT'S NOT A SITUATION WHERE YOU CAN OR YOU'RE ABLE TO.

BUT THE ATHLETE SIDE OF ME DOESN'T WANT SOMEONE TO HAVE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE WHEN I'VE WORKED REALLY, REALLY HARD TO GET WHERE I AM.

THAT PUTS ME RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THAT.

>> TODD, A QUESTION FOR ME LEGALLY LIKE THE WHOLE IDEA OF, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, DISCRIMINATION, LIKE THE LEGAL DEFINITION THAT OF COMES INTO PLAY, AND AS FUTURE GENERATIONS, YOUNGER GENERATIONS, THEY ARE MORE FLUID IN THEIR INTERPRETATION OF SEX, AND AND GENDER PLAN PERHAPS WHERE WE ARE CURRENTLY, SO IF WE THINK ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF LAW AND TITLE NINE, I MEAN, IS THERE A PLACE FOR THIS TO HAPPEN?

A MIDDLE GROUND?

>> I THINK SO.

I THINK SO.

BECAUSE WHAT WE TALK ABOUT OFTEN OR BLIGHT LINE RULES, RIGHT?

EVERYBODY IS SECLUDED OR EVERYONE IS CLUED BUT SOMETIMES WE DON'T TALK ABOUT UNIQUE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, AND IF WE LOOK AT OTHER ASPECTS TO TITLE NINE IT CONSIDERS UNIQUE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES IN EACH SITUATION WHEN EACH INDIVIDUAL PRESENTS THEMSELVES, WE DELVE IN TO SEE THE TYPES LOCKER ROOM FACILITIES THAT ARE BEING PROVIDED, THE TRANSPORTATION THAT'S BEING PROVIDED.

SO IN THIS SITUATION A MIDDLE GROUND COULD BE, AND WHAT WE COULD SEE FROM THE COURTS, IS SOMETHING THAT LOOKS MORE AT THE UNIQUE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, THE SPORT THAT THE STUDENT SEEKS TO PLAY, ANY TYPE OF HORMONAL THERAPY OR MEDICAL INTERVENTION THEY MAY HAVE UNDERGONE BE WITH THE TIME PERIOD THAT HAS PASSED SINCE THEY TRANSITIONED.

MAYBE THOSE UNIQUE FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES COULD ULTIMATELY BE THE RULE THAT WE SEE WHEN ALL OF THE DUST SETTLES.

>> BUT THAT TEAMS LOOK A LOFTY RULES.

IT'S NOT A UNIVERSAL UBIQUITOUS ONE.

>> THAT WAS A QUESTION I HAD.

I WAS STRUGGLING WITH THE SAME THING.

FROM A HUMAN SIDE MY FRIEND, I WAS THE WORLD'S BIGGEST TOMBOY WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

I GET IT.

I WAS DENIED A LOT.

BUT IF CRITERIA THE CRITERIA THAT TODD JUST TALKED ABOUT, WE ARE ILL PREPARED WITH THAT CRITERIA.

I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYBODY IS READY FOR THAT.

BUT THEN AS WE DO EVOLVE, AND LET'S SAY THE COURT DOES -- OR WE CHANGE OUR POSITION HERE IN KENTUCKY, WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT ACCOMMODATION.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO START THINKING ABOUT, ESPECIALLY IN YOUR JOB, ACCOMMODATION IF THIS EVOLVES TO THE POINT OF ALLOWING THOSE ATHLETES TO COMPETE.

>> GIVE US A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU MEAN BY A ACCOMMODATION.

>> A DORM DORM.

HOW YOU'RE GOING TO HOUSE AN INDIVIDUAL.

>> AND WHAT RESTROOMS THEY MIGHT USE?

>> LOCKER ROOM SITUATIONS, THE HOUSING, AND WHAT LEVELS -- HOW DO YOU -- WHAT'S THE CRITERIA?

WHEN ARE YOU A TRANSGENDER FEMALE ATHLETE?

WHAT THERAPIES HAVE YOU UNDERGONE AND ALL THOSE THINGS.

SO THOSE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT WE'RE JUST NOT QUITE ANSWERED IN MY MIND.

>> WOULD THE COURTS DECIDE EACH THOSE INDIVIDUAL CRITERIA OR WOULD THEY SAY, HRE THE RULING.

CONGRESS NEEDS TO MAKE THE LEGISLATION.

>> THEY MIGHT HAVE SOME LEE WAY AT FIRST.

BUT THE COURTS WON'T -- I DON'T THINK WILL GET DOWN IN THE WEEDS ON THAT.

AS POLICYMAKERS IN BOTH BRANCHES, I THINK WE'RE -- IT'S INCUMBENT UPON TO US TRY IFIT DEVOLVES TO THAT LEVEL.

BUT THE ACCOMMODATION ASPECT OFIT AND THE CRITERIA FOR DESIGNATION I GUESS WOULD BE THE THINGS THAT WERE JUST NOT ANSWER TODAY ME AND I GUESS WE REALLY NEED TO START ADDRESSING.

AND IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT BILL, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN PREMATURE BUT WE THAN THE WOO PROBABLY BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION AND WE WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING ALONG THOSE LINES, AND WE WERE GETTING A LOT OF QUESTIONS FROM SCHOOLS AND PARENTS AND COACHES, YOU KNOW, ON THE WHAT IF SIDE.

SO I LIKE TO THINK OF IT AS MORE PREVENTIVE WITH THE ABILITY TO EVOLVE.

>> THAT'S WHAT THE SPONSOR, SENATOR ROBBY MILLS OF HARDEN HAD SAID.

THERE WAS ONE PARTICULAR CASE OF A YOUNG GIRL WHO WAS STARTING A FIELD SOCCER TEAM WHO HAD TESTIFIED QUITE FREQUENTLY BUT THAT'S THE PLIME EXAMPLE THAT WE HAD.

MANY PEOPLE WERE SAYING, YOU'RE MAKING STATE LAW TO APPLY TO ONE SITUATION, BUT I THINK THE SENATOR SAID AND AS YOU'RE SAYING, IT WAS RAY PREVENTIVE MEASURE.

>> OR SOMETHING TO ALLOW EVOLUTION AND TO MAYBE -- IF IT GOES THERE, TO GET IT RIGHT.

>> BUT A BAN DOESN'T REALLY ALLOW FOR EVOLUTION, US DOES IT?

>> NO, BUT WE'RE HAVING DISCUSSIONS.

>> SO YOU CAN UNDO THE BAN.

>> WELL, THE COURT COULD UNDO THE BAN, LIKE OTHER STATES HAVE DONE OR, YOU KNOW, ON A FEDERAL LEVEL, BUT WE'RE HAVING THOSE DISCUSSIONS.

WE'RE GETTING DATA, AND I THINK ALL THAT'S A GOOD THING.

>> THE NCAA, I MEAN, THEY'VE EVEN CHANGED THEY EVER STANCE IN RECENT MONTHS.

I THINK IN JANUARY THEY SAID EACH SPORT AND ITS GOVERNING FEDERATION CAN DECIDE SOME OF THESE RULES, SO THAT CREATES -- WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WILD WEST WITH NLI: >> THAT'S EVEN WORSE.

>> THIS COULD BE AN EVEN BIGGER WILD WEST SITUATION IS TRANSGENDER ATHLETES BECAUSE EACH INDIVIDUAL SPORT IS GOING TO TART MAKING IT IS CALL, MUCH LIKE HE WAS SAYING.

IT MIGHT BE VERY DIVINITY FROM SWIMMING THAN IT WOULD BE FOR SOFTBALL OR BASKETBALL.

YOU HAVE ALL THESE DIFFERENT FEDERATIONS NO LOOKING TO MAKE THEIR OWN RULES.

>> THAT SOUNDS CRAZY AND WILD WESTISH, DOESN'T IT, CHRISTI?

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A BETTER ROUTE TO GO?

>> GOSH, THERE ARE NO GOOD ANSWERS.

I THINK IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS, I THINK TO EVERYONE'S POINT, TALKING ABOUT BEING AN UNCHARTED TERRITORY AND REALLY TRYING TO FIGURE THINGS OUT AND STILL UNDERSTAND THE SENSITIVE NATURE OF WHAT A YOUNG PERSON IS DEALING WITH AND GOING THROUGH IS A LOT, AND SO NI IT IS A SITUATION WHERE IT JUST DOES HAVE TO BE CONSTANT DISCUSSION AND CONSTANTLY EVOLUTION HERE BECAUSE IT IS NEW AND IT'S DIFFERENT FOR EVERYBODY.

WHEN YOU STILL WANT TO HAVE THAT HUMAN SIDE OF THIS WHOLE THING, IT JUST MAKES IT A VERY INTERESTING TOPIC.

WILL CONTINUE TO BE FOR A LONG TIME.

>> I'M SURE THEY'LL PROBABLY REVISIT THIS IN '23, DO YOU THINK, OF THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION?

>> I DON'T KNOW ABOUT '23 BUT I THINK WE'LL CERTAINLY CONTINUE TO HAVE DISCUSSIONS, AND OUR CONSTITUENTS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IT ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ISSUE AS WELL.

>> SO ARE THEY CONCERNED BECAUSE THERE WAS LEGISLATION PRESENTED OR WAS LEGISLATION PRESENTED BECAUSE THERE WAS CONCERN?

>> A LITTLE OF BOTH.

THERE WERE BOTH.

I THINK THE SEVERITY OF THE LEGAL CONCERNS SOME OF THE EMAILS THAT WE GET CERTAINLY.

SOME OF THE FOLKS THAT ARE CONCERNED.

AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE ADMINISTRATORS, COACHES, SCHOOL DISTRICTS, SCHOOL ATTORNEYS JUST ARE KIND OF ANXIOUS, I GUESS, BUT ISSUE AS A WHOLE.

>> TODD ALLEN, CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE US ANY NAMES.

BUT WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

>> YOU KNOW, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, THE COMMISSIONER HAS BEEN VERY PUBLIC AND CLEAR THAT HE FELT THAT THIS LEGISLATION WAS UNNECESSARY BECAUSE, AS WE HAVE INDICATED, IT IMPACTS SO FEW STUDENTS, BUT I THINK WHAT WE ALSO HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND IS THE HUMAN ASPECT OF THAT, AND THE COMMISSIONER HAS ALSO STATED THAT THIS IS CONTRARY TO HIS OWN VALUES OF INCLUSION AND SUPPORT FOR EVERY STUDENT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THIS GROUP OF STUDENTS IS AT EXPONENTIALLY HIGHER RISK OF COMMITTING TEEN SUICIDE AND THAT'S CERTAINLY CONCERNING BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO TURN ANY STUDENT AWAY FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR MAKE THEM FEEL THAT THEY'RE UNSUPPORTED IN THOSE PUBLIC SCHOOL PROGRAMS.

FROM THE ATHLETIC PERSPECTIVE AT THE DEPARTMENT, WE HAVEN'T HEARD A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS.

PRIOR TO THE LEGISLATION AND REALLY HAVEN'T RECEIVED THAT MANY FOLLOWING THE LEGISLATION, AND I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A TESTAMENT TO THE FACT THAT WE JUST REALLY DON'T SEE MANY OF THESE ISSUES OCCURRING IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> SO IN LESS THAN THE FIVE MINUTES WE'VE GOT REMAINING LET'S TALK ABOUT WHEN WE DO THIS SHOW FOR THE 60th ANNIVERSARY, KATHY, OF TITLE NINE, HOW DO YOU HOPE THE CONVERSATION HAS CHANGED AND IMPROVED?

>> I HOPE THAT THE MOMENT THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW WHERE WE ARE LEANING IN TO WHAT IS UNDONE AS WELL AS WHAT HAS HAPPENED, THAT WE'LL SEE SOME SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN TERMS OF THE NUMBERS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN GETTING OPPORTUNITIES, GETTING FAIR AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES COLLEGIATELY.

>> AND COACHES BEING COMPENSATED EQUALLY?

>> YEAH, ALTHOUGH THAT'S NOT REALLY, THAT'S A TITLE SEVEN.

MY COACHES WILL FIRE ME FOR SAYING THAT.

[LAUGHTER] TITLE NINE IS ABOUT STUDENT ATHLETES, AND STUDENT ATHLETES' STUNTS U.

OPPORTUNITIES.

IF COACHES ARE UNFAIRLY PAID, THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

IT'S A DIFFERENT TITLE.

BUT, YES.

I MEAN, SO I HOPE THAT WE CAN LOOK BACK AND SAY, BOY, THAT WAS A MOMENT THAT HAPPENED THERE IN THAT 50th ANNIVERSARY THAT REALLY EMPHASIZED FOR US WHAT STILL NEEDED TO BE DONE AND HOW WE COULD ADDRESS IT.

>> I THINK WE'VE HIT ON SOME ISSUES TONIGHT THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED AND HOPEFULLY COMPLETED ANSWERED IN SOME WAY IN THE NEXT NEWS3 TO TEN YEARS.

JENNIFER.

>> THE JOURNALIST IN ME IS EAGER TO SEE IF THERE WILL BE FEDERAL LEGISLATION THAT SORT OFY REINS IN NIL, ADDRESSES TITLE NINE CONCERNS AND ISSUES.

I'D LIKE TO SEE THERE BE MORE GUIDANCE AT THE TOP, I GUESS, FOR SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THAT CAPACITY.

THE JOURNALIST IN ME, THE JOURNALISM INSTRUCTOR IN ME HOPES THAT THE MOMENT THAT KATHY IS TALKING ABOUT, THAT THE JOURNALISTS ARE SEIZING ON THAT AND ACTUALLY TELLING THE STORIES OF ATHLETES THAT MATTER, THAT CAN ADDRESS ALL OF THESE TOPICS GOING FORWARD, THAT IT DOESN'T TAKE A QUIET SEDONA PRINCE TICKTOCK TO MAKE PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO A LOT OF OF THE INEQUITIES THAT EXIST PIPED LIKE TO SEE ESPN TAKE THE WOMEN'S BASKETBALL CONTRACT AND SELL IT FOR WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY WORTH WHICH IS SOMETHING THE NCAA LEARNED THROUGH ITS OWN SOCIETY PROCESS, THAT IT'S WORTH A LOT MORE THAN IT PROBABLY IS MAKING FOR THAT.

SO I THINK THIS IS KIND OF THAT MOMENT.

LIKE KATHY WAS SAYING.

AND I'D LIKE TO SEE THE ENTITIES THAT GIVE VOICE TO THE VOICELESS ACTUALLY CONTINUE TO DO THEIR JOB AND SHOW US THOSE STORIES.

>> CHRISTY.

>> WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO, WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT WITH THIS AS WELL, TOO, SO WITH AWARENESS ABOUT THE 50th ANNIVERSARY WITH HOW STUDENT ATHLETES CAN USE SOCIAL MEDIA TO THEIR ADVANTAGE, THAT'S A WHOLE NEW DAY.

THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEVER DEALT WITH WITH ATHLETES.

BUT IT GIVES OF THEM A PLATFORM AND A PLACE TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THINGS AND DISCUSS THINGS, WHICH IS WHAT CAN MOTIVATE CHANGE.

>> SENATOR WEBB, I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD.

DEPENDS ON HOW LONG YOU TALK.

>> I AGREE WITH MY COLLEAGUES HERE, BUT I THINK WE EAVE GOT TO BE ACTIVISTS, NOT JUST ATHLETIC ACTIVISTS, BUT THOSE OF US WHO FOUGHT THE BATTLE AND BENEFITED FROM THE BATTLE, ALL GENERATIONS HAVE GOT TO SAY SOMETHING.

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, REPORT IT.

SAY SOMETHING.

GET ON SOCIAL MEDIA YOURSELF.

DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SOMEBODY WHO IS PLAYING NOW.

IT COULD BE US OLD FOLKS.

BUT CERTAINLY IN THE CONVERSATION AND THE CONCERNS ON THE ISSUE WE'VE TALKED ABOUT TONIGHT BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GOING AWAY.

THERE'S GOING TO BE MORE AND THERE'S GOING TO BE MANY, WHETHER IT'S CRITERIA, ACCOMMODATION, DATA.

DATA IS A GOOD THING.

SO ENGAGE WITH YOUR POLICYMAKERS.

ENGAGE WITH YOUR LEGISLATORS ON EVERY LEVEL, EVEN YOUR LOCAL OFFICIALS, YOUR SCHOOL BOARDS.

SCHOOL BOARD IS VERY IMPORTANT.

SO I WILL I'D JUST SAY NOT ONLY ATHLETE ACTIVISM BUT ARE ACTIVISM FOR ALL WOMEN WHO WANT TO PRESERVE, ENHANCE AND EMPOWER FUTURE GENERATIONS.

>> TODD ALLEN, YOU'VE GOT A 10 SECOND RESPONSE?

>> I WOULD JUST NOTE ON THE TOPIC OF ACTIVISM THERE ARE NUMEROUS COMPLAINT METHODS THAT ARE AVAILABLE UNDER NINETY TITLE NINE TO ATHLETES OR ANYONE IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL SO USE THOSE.

>> USE THOSE.

THIS HAS BEEN A REALLY, REALLY INFORMATIVE DISCUSSION.

AND WE'LL DO IT AGAIN SOME TIME.

THANK YOU ALL.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

HOPE YOU'LL TUNE IN TOMORROW IT NIGHT A BE SURE TO JOIN US EAC NIGHT AT 6:30 EASTERN, 5:30 CENTRAL FOR "KENTUCKY EDITION."

AND JOIN BILL BRYANT AND A TEAM OF WORKING JOURNALISTS TO DISCUSS THE NEWS OF THE WEEK ON "COMMENT ON KENTUCKY," FRIDAY A 8:00 EASTERN, 7:00 CENTRAL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

HAVE A GOOD NIGHT AND I'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW NIGHT.