♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Welcome to "For Our Brothers," a candid conversation on Black men's health.

We're in the beautiful Louis Stokes Health Sciences Library on the campus of Howard University, and I am your host, Dr. Reed Tuckson.

Black men suffer worse health outcomes than any other racial group in America, thus sadly, also resulting in them having the lowest life expectancy and the highest rates for many diseases.

This special invites Black men to have a very lively and candid conversation about their responsibility for every aspect of their health.

Today, we will be addressing issues that Black men don't often discuss, like mental health, aging, and their trust in the healthcare system.

And as you can see, I'm having this conversation with a group of very distinguished Black men -- Mike Smith, Willie-Lloyd Reeves, Presley Nelson, Reverend Norman Nixon, William Battle, and Leon Gooden.

Gentlemen, thank you so much in advance for participating in what I know will be an informative and quite possibly a life-changing conversation.

Welcome.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you.

>> A candid conversation on Black men's health wouldn't be responsible and couldn't be complete without the engagement of some of the most brilliant healthcare experts in our community.

I am pleased to welcome Dr. Ivan Walks and Dr. Oladunni Filani to weigh in on this conversation.

Thank you.

Brothers, let's kick off this conversation by talking about mental health.

To begin, let's talk about talking about it.

The issue, obviously, is that Black men seem to have such a difficult time talking about mental illness.

And I'm wondering why is that?

>> I think one of the reasons is that the Black community has had a stigma about mental health.

Uh, many of times as we grew up, many of our relatives would say, you know, instead of going to get professional help, "I ain't crazy," you know?

And I need, you know, so we needed to make sure that we take advantage of mental-health opportunities and become more aware of the professionals that can help us and get the service we need.

>> Mental illness is, like Willie said, has always been a stigma with us, and seeing an expert to have that discussion was something that we typically didn't do.

We talked to our boys, our friends, the barbershop, uh, play ball.

We work through it, but we didn't deal with the essence of what our problems were, and we're seeing the results of that today.

>> When you are going around the community and you see a brother that seems to be having trouble, how do you know?

I mean, how do you -- What are the danger signs that gives you a sense that something seems to be going wrong?

>> I mean, you can read body language, you know, um, a lot of the nonverbals tell a lot, right?

Um, whether they're facial features.

But sometimes you can just feel the energy in the room, you know?

Um, and a lot of times, we want to deal with everything within and not speak about it because we're told that it's weak.

>> That issue of we think that we're weak.

I mean, what's that about historically?

Where does that come from?

>> I remember as a kid, if you're walking down the street and it's a bunch of guys at the end of the block you didn't know, uh, you had to appear strong.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Because if you didn't, you might get jumped.

>> Right, right.

>> So we don't express our weaknesses.

We want to appear strong.

Inside, it might be a different story.

>> You know, this idea of being and feeling strong, let me come to you in the back there.

Uh, what if someone was to pull you over and say something to you?

What if your wife was to say, "I'm noticing something about you"?

How do we react?

>> Well, I think first and foremost, um, I believe in meeting people where they are.

To be honest with you, be frank with you, and being able to accept the reality that, uh, behaviors or something of that nature.

Someone been noticing behavior or something of that nature.

Um, but, you know, when we had a conversation earlier, the thing about this mental health is, um, it's just something that you -- Outside of a trained eye, it's just not something that you see.

It can just show up outside of a trained eye.

And, uh, but -- but the willingness to be open and the willingness to kind of meet people where they are is -- is -- is a -- is a factor.

>> So let's say that you again, your observation of people that you know, and you see that somebody seems to be struggling, however you can sort of recognize that the energy in the room, something's wrong.

They seem depressed.

They seem preoccupied.

What is our responsibility to our brother when we see that?

Do we have an obligation to engage?

If so, how do you do that?

>> Well, I think we need to be careful about how we engage, but I think we do have an obligation to engage.

But we also need to make sure that you have built that relationship, that the brother is going to be acceptable to what you are trying to get over to him and make sure that he feels that you're really trying to benefit him and not trying to hurt him.

Because once again, as we say, we've got that image that we've got to stay strong.

And I think it's been built throughout our families and our family structure.

So we're not always amenable to having someone give us the advice that we need.

>> Are any of you raising kids today, kids or grandkids?

Any of you?

>> Yeah.

>> You are.

So what would you say to your son about how they should approach this kind of thing if they're having issues?

Are you willing or able to have that kind of conversation with them?

>> Well, I have a -- I have a young daughter, you know, um, very young dau-- She'll be 4.

But, um, at an early age, we've taught her to use your emotions, express things, you know, and it's a safe space.

We have to create that safe space because that safe space builds trust.

And I think sometimes we, with our boys or our people, there's not that safe space.

And we generalize talking rather than talk from experience.

>> That's a great point.

I certainly wonder and worry about some of the kids that are being exposed to so much violence in our community.

That's just such a big issue.

Um, how do you all, as men, sit down and talk to young men about their anxiety, their fears, and how they either act out or how they react when they are under pressure?

>> Yeah.

Well, one of the things I would say is that admittedly, we, as older men, we have failed in some ways in terms of establishing relationships and bonds with these young people.

And whereas we didn't have all the access to social media and television and all that sort of stuff, you had to talk, you sat at the table and had dinner and had conversation.

We failed our young people in that degree.

And so they have to -- You have to regain their trust.

They have to believe in you to even listen to you nowadays.

>> You know, back to the same sort of point you made earlier, and that is a sense that you can't just go up to someone who, you know, and just say, out of the blue, "Hey, I think you're having trouble.

Can I help you?"

You have to take time to establish that relationship.

And you're saying that relationship needs to be established, you know, even long before problems exist, so that we begin to have a bonding with other young Black men.

Is that the point that you're making?

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

I saw somebody wanted to answer the response.

>> I actually wanted to add to that.

In addition to what he's sharing, I think self-disclosure is important.

I think it's important that -- I have a 13-year-old grandson, and it's important that my grandson know, "Hey, look, I haven't done all things right, and I've had these kind of issues and concerns whatnot."

And I think that kind of conversation kind of opens up his mind to understanding.

"Look, grandpa, you know, he has -- he's had some issues and whatnot, what have you."

So he's -- he's -- And you know how they see a grandparent or a mother and father, but he's open to what, you know, things we have to share.

And that kind of builds a relationship, sort of, you know, but I totally agree, wholeheartedly agree with what you're sharing in terms of, you know, early on and being able to kind of engage that conversation.

>> You know, I have grandchildren as well, grandsons.

And I have said the same thing to them.

I have said to them, "I want you to know that at 3:00 in the morning, if you're feeling concerned and you're upset and you feel like there's nowhere to go, my phone is always open and I'm ready to be there for you."

And I've been saying this to them for a long time.

Well, what if you decide now that, you know, maybe somebody needs some professional help?

Are we in our community, aware of our resources?

Where do you go to refer someone to help if, in fact, you are concerned that it's beyond your ability to talk and counsel with them?

>> I had a family member that, uh, needed some help, and I tried to talk to the parents, but the parents were in denial.

And you got to get the parents to be able to accept it.

Because if the parents don't accept it, the person gonna be in denial and not gonna get the help that they need.

>> So it really comes back to this is a family affair in some ways, and we have to create families that are strong, families that are willing to take the time to listen and engage and then be able to refer.

>> Well, I think to what he was just saying is that sometimes, I mean, even the parents don't know what to do, right?

Or they're afraid to actually talk to a professional because they don't want to be judged or looked at less than.

And honestly, I mean, therapy is what it is, it's therapy.

You know, it's a safe space.

But we are encouraged not to speak out about these things at all.

>> Well, you know, let me turn to our -- our doctors here, our physicians, and Dr.

Walks, you are a prominent psychiatrist in our community.

Um, what do you say to these, uh, good men who are wondering, you know, families that don't know where to turn, brothers who want to help but may not be sure where to go?

>> I would say, first of all, thank you all for having the conversation.

Let's start there.

Um, we sometimes think that it has to be an either or an or.

Right?

Well, you know, either we got to, you know, pray about it or we got to go get therapy.

Uh, I pray about it and get therapy.

I think we don't have to throw anything away.

There's a lot of richness in our community about how we care about each other, how we feel about each other.

And we can keep all of that and then normalize this.

Right?

You say, "Well, I don't want to go for therapy."

"Oh, really?

You go for physical therapy."

You pull a muscle, the doctor says, "Here, take a pill and go for physical therapy."

We have to understand that this is another part of our healthcare system.

And this whole thing about, "Well, when it gets bad, then we'll get some help," uh, don't do that with your blood pressure.

Because when it gets bad is when you're having a stroke, right?

Don't do that with your diabetes.

Because when it gets bad, it's when your kidneys are failing and you're on the ground.

Right?

So I think the opportunity is there for us to normalize conversations about health, including behavioral health and mental health, including all the different kinds of therapy, whether it's a dietitian or a counselor.

This is an opportunity for us to say, you know what?

Our health matters.

All of it matters.

My blood pressure matters.

My level of anxiety matters.

All of it.

So my advice would be, don't throw anything out that we've always had, that we've always used, that has helped us.

Add this to that and then normalize it in a way that it just feels ordinary, ordinary for us to do it.

>> Dr. Filani, what, uh, what struck you the most as you heard our brothers having this conversation?

You are, you know, seeing patients every day.

What got your attention?

>> So, um, just like Dr.

Walk said, I really appreciate the fact that we're having this conversation and that you guys are talking about it.

One of the things that was mentioned by a couple of people, and you as well, is your grandson.

Um, the generational thought flow when it comes to health.

Uh, especially mental health, that one of the things I want to bring out is sometimes we actually don't know our family history or we don't talk about our family history, and that could be a big issue.

But if, as a grandfather, as a father, um, you make that -- make it accessible to the people, to the children and to your grandchildren, it's easier for them to know that, "Okay, it's all right for me to talk about how I feel or to talk about the issues I'm having, rather than lashing out."

Um, because sometimes I know, um, earlier they talked about when you observe something.

The problem we're having nowadays is that people are isolated.

You know, there's so much you can do.

You can sit down in your home and not go out and everything is brought to you.

And that isolation makes it even more challenging.

Gone are the days that people hang out in a barbershop, for example.

You know, people set up appointments, show up, do it, and you're out.

And so those opportunities are not even there nowadays with social media.

And so being able to have this conversation and having this conversation with friends and those that are around you is very important.

And lastly, don't laugh when someone expresses how they feel.

>> Yes.

>> Because sometimes that's a problem.

You know, if I'm being vulnerable to you and the first thing you do is [laughs] and you laugh, I'm shutting down.

I'm not telling you anything else.

And, you know, there's a tendency that somebody's defense mechanism may be laughter because they don't know what to tell you.

And that's a bad response to someone who's struggling.

Because once you laugh, they're not going to say anything anymore.

>> You know, Dr.

Walks, this is a key point, is that sometimes we don't help others because we're just not sure what to do.

As you teach us and advise us, what do you say to a loved one who is concerned?

But how can I be positively engaged and help resolve the situation?

>> You know, Dr. Tuckson, a couple of things come to mind.

One is when you said to your grandsons, "My phone is on all the time.

I'm always available."

It's important to let those we care about know that we're going to be available.

And then one of the -- one of the brothers here talked about just this -- this need for us to let people know we care about them.

Right?

I am much more likely to come and talk to you if I know that you -- if I know your laugh-- that laughter is your defense mechanism already, maybe I know more about you and so you and I can connect at a different level.

So I think this -- this -- this notion of I can be strong and I can be available.

I can be strong and I can be strong for you.

Sometimes that strength that we think separates us can be a strength that allows someone to lean on us because they know we can take it, and they know that we will love them despite whatever they're bringing our way.

>> Unconditional love.

Unconditional love for our people.

>> Absolutely.

Absolutely.

>> And so, Dr.

Walks, if we go to our once-a-year checkup with our family physician, our general practitioner, and we have some psychological issues, some mental-health challenges, what do we say to our primary-care doctor about -- you know, so that they will understand something about -- have a clue that something's going on in their lives?

>> So let me -- let me start with this.

A lot of things we can do at home, right?

Those little home blood pressure cuffs that they sell at wherever -- CVS, Walmart, Walgreens.

There are also online, you can find mental-health screenings.

You can look at, "I feel kind -- I don't want to talk to anybody yet, but let me go online and see, take a screening about anxiety, about depression, so I can tell, you know what?

I'm scoring 9 out of 10 on this.

This is something I need to talk to somebody about."

The other thing to your question, Dr. Tuckson, I know that you're a doc and I'm a doc, but if your doc doesn't ask you, if you are the one that has to raise this with your doc, uh, there's another doc down the street.

>> Very true.

One of our guests wants to make a comment.

>> Yeah, that was a key point that I think we need to be cognizant of.

We need to communicate with our medical professionals.

And a lot of times we don't know how to do that.

And it's important that we understand.

>> Let me make sure -- That is so important.

So we have a primary-care doctor.

I want him to respond.

That was great.

>> I kind of figured that was coming to me.

So as part of your annual physical visit, there's a screening that is done.

So there are two parts to what I'm about to say.

A lot of times, that screening could be done by the person who's checking you in.

A lot of times what I'm finding is that men say no or the answer to the question is, "No, I'm okay."

But until I ask, "Are you really okay?"

It's very important to know that me asking that question is not because I want to check the box that you've answered the question, so that it fulfills some sort of requirement that my conscience is clear that I asked you, but that I show that as a primary-care physician, I do care about your health and allow you to express yourself.

I can't tell you the number of times that the conversation is completely different.

It's like we're now just starting to visit because there's a lot that starts to get unpacked during that process.

So as part of your annual screening, you should -- Dr.

Walks talks about screening for depression and anxiety.

Those two things should be part of it.

And if it is not, find yourself another doctor.

>> Our conversation is just getting started and we'll be right back after a short break.

♪♪ ♪♪ Welcome back to our conversation -- "For Our Brothers: A Candid Conversation on Black Men's Health."

And I'm your host, Dr. Reed Tuckson.

For this segment, I want to invite Dr. Pamela Coleman and Dr. Leslie Deane to join us for a conversation on Black men and aging.

Welcome.

[ Applause ] Brothers, one of the key requirements for healthy aging is to have regular checkups all along our lifespan.

So I have to ask you, why don't Black men go to the doctor regularly, as they have been advised?

>> A lot of them is in denial, and I...was in denial for a while.

And then I met Dr. Clinton, and he gave me a lot of information about prostates.

And after I learned about it, I started going there, getting checked, and I start passing the word out.

And a lot of Black men don't have health insurance.

So you got to pass it out to them that there's a lot of free services out here in this area that they can go to.

And I was a spokesperson for prostate.

Even though I have prostate cancer, I'm a survivor and I let them know.

And I put out, "Howard Hospital, come here, get checked."

And I hope a lot of Black men will keep doing it.

>> But when you talk to other Black men about it, what seems to be the reluctance?

I mean, I appreciate the issues about insurance and those things, but come on.

>> I think because men are just acclimated early on in life.

>> That's right.

>> ...that we just don't go to the doctors.

Um, I think that, you know, masculinity has a role to play in it.

Uh, why we don't go to the doctors.

Uh, I recall growing up, you know, you hurt your finger or something like that, you know, Dad would say, "Oh, boy, stop crying.

Get up and keep going."

So I think we're acclimated to it early on in life, and we kind of grow to kind of perceive that as being maleness, or being male and, um, and as we -- as we age, we continue those kind of thought processes and those types of behaviors.

So I think that early-age component has a role to play with that as well.

>> Yes.

>> If I had to pick one, one issue, just one issue.

Especially around prostate cancer is the digital examination.

>> Yeah.

>> They don't want to do it.

>> They don't want to do it.

>> It's a threat to their masculinity.

If I had to pick just one issue with that.

>> I think the other thing is being knowledgeable.

Many of them are not aware of what they need to ask or what they need to do.

And the whole -- I think you mentioned masculinity.

It's interesting because our women go to the doctor, you know, and they and we -- and we don't follow them or either we have to have them take us and be... >> You know, I read a statistic the other day that really astounded me, and that was that women make about 75% of all the health decisions for the family.

>> Yes.

>> Now, how do you suggest we overcome that?

And how do we start to talk to other Black men that gets us over the hump and gets us to be responsible people for ourselves and the health of our family?

>> You know, when I found out I had prostate cancer, I go to the gym three times a week and I told the guys, a couple of guys have prostate cancer.

Do you know, it was about 15 to 20 guys had prostate cancer.

And they told me that they had surgery and everything.

And they made me feel better and made me decide to go and have the surgery and had prostate to get rid of my cancer.

Men need to talk.

>> How do you talk to your peers about the importance of them taking charge of their own health?

>> No, I think one of the biggest things is, is that I mean -- This brother said it here, just being knowledgeable, right?

And we have to get out of the mentality that we only go when something's wrong.

Right?

Um, you're supposed to have your regular checkups maybe twice a year and things of that nature.

Sometimes we don't go until every other year, and so we have to take care of ourselves.

But then also, too, just as a survivor, as myself, you know, you have to share your journey.

You have to share your story and not be afraid -- unapologetic about your journey and story, because that helps someone else be encouraged to say, "I'm not alone."

>> So you're not afraid to go to your peers and your colleagues and say, "Hey, brother, are you taking care of yourself?"

And if you do, do you get pushback?

>> I mean, I don't necessarily get pushback because a lot of times people tiptoe, right?

Because they don't want to offend.

But I actually welcome the conversation.

And as survivors, we should welcome that conversation because we're a testimony and a blessing for others.

>> Let me look at some of the brothers who were a little older than you.

I'm not gonna say any of you are old, but let me turn to the older -- How have you experienced the process of aging with the things that we -- You know, because we lose certain things as we get older.

A least I'll be honest.

I can't pump the same level of iron I used to pump.

And I sometimes when I'm in the gym with all them young kids making noises, I kind of feel embarrassed that I can't.

You know, I'm not the guy I used to be.

How do you, as older men, handle that?

>> One of the things that I found -- I'm an older man, you know, is that I've got a story to tell.

>> Oh.

>> And, you know, and I want to let you know my experiences.

And I want to accept my experiences, the health issues that I have gone through in my many years of living.

And I want to make sure that you understand that these things may be -- you may come upon them.

And I want to give you the experience that I had and let you know that you can survive it.

And you can -- you can take it and deal with it and move forward and upward.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it starts young.

Everybody in my family had diabetes except me.

I'm 72 years old.

I pretend like I had diabetes when I was 60.

And I work out.

I eat like a diabetic.

You gotta start young and take care of yourself.

>> What goes on in your head as you start to lose certain things?

Do you gain anything?

>> I'm aging.

Certain things are happening.

I can't do the things that I used to do, but the things that I can do work best for me, will work best for me in terms of taking charge of my health.

And that's kind of my -- my format that I'd go by.

And I generally try to have conversations with other men about that.

You know, there's some good things about you, but you got to be open-minded about where you are.

>> So I really, by the way, I really appreciate both of your points together.

And certainly the one is take care of yourself early, give yourself the best chance.

But then once you are older, you are who you are and now you've got to handle it.

>> Yes.

>> You know, I'm really excited to be 73 years young, old.

You know, I'm excited.

I can't wait to wake up in the morning because I challenged myself.

I-I found myself, uh, challenging myself with difficult things.

>> The mind moves the body.

You know, I'm in the gym and there's some older guys probably your age that are more buff than me.

But it's the mentality thing that keeps you going so the mind can take you to any place you want to go.

But if you tell yourself you can't be strong, you won't be strong.

>> Let me raise a tough issue.

Nobody will like this question, I guarantee you.

One of the things that comes with aging is sometimes our sexual potency isn't quite as good.

And also, I think some people are worried about going to the doctor we heard because they didn't want to have the examination that comes with that, for checking the prostate.

But these are -- these are sensitive issues.

How do you think we can talk to other men about being honest about our concerns and our fears in this regard?

>> I think that has to come through some of the institutions in our society -- churches, fraternities, some other groups need to establish men's circles because those conversations come up as you have fellowship and a bond with another brother, because certain things you're not going to share based on confidentiality.

But that's the elephant in the room and a lot of conversations with men.

If somebody brings it up, you're not going to admit to it.

But if you're comfortable enough with them and had a conversation, I think you can begin to address that.

>> Yes.

>> When I'm talking to people, I'm comfortable with them.

I tell them I'm old, I can't do the things I used to do, and you got to accept it.

When you start talking to them, they'll tell you certain things, too.

"Man, I can't do that no more."

>> Well, the one thing I want to make sure we do is because you mentioned, and we all know that there's a lot of Black men in our community, a lot of men are listening right now to us who are -- who have prostate cancer and don't know because they have not gone and getting screened.

So what is it that we would be saying to them tonight?

What's the one thing we're going to say to them?

>> Get checked.

Make sure, you know, to go to your doctor and not only to get the physical examination, but get the PSA and make sure that you, you know, you're -- you're following up and then once you get that, you know, be proactive in the treatment that you need if you need it.

But, you know, the important thing is going to your doctor and knowing what to ask for and making sure that you get the treatment that you need.

>> Doctor -- I'm going to turn to our expert clinicians here.

And Dr. Coleman, you're the only woman physician that we've had on our panel.

And you've heard these men talk about how the challenges of being able to hear good advice and act on it.

You've heard me say that about 75% of all the health decisions in the family are made by -- by women.

How do you react to the conversation we've just had?

>> Very interesting conversation, actually.

I would say as a female urologist and taking care of men, that I've had this conversation.

And I think you mentioned one point about being honest.

We really do need to be honest with ourselves and take time to speak with your doctor, with your physician and be honest.

And then also remember that your partner at home wants to hear from you.

>> Yeah.

>> Mm.

Say that again.

>> Your partner at home wants to hear from you.

Okay?

And it could be -- I mean, sometimes it could be a challenging conversation to start, but I think it's a good one to have.

A very good one to have.

>> And, brother, as a -- Dr. Deane, as a Black man and a Black male urologist you've had these conversations a lot.

Um, what do you say to your patients who are afraid to come see you?

>> So I want to first commend everyone for being here, because we often don't sit in a -- in a forum like -- like this and have these types of candid conversations.

Certainly it's one thing that has hit home is that everyone recognizes that prevention is better than cure.

And that's true for -- for everything.

Uh, when patients come in to see me, I try to establish a good rapport with them, uh, build their trust, build their confidence in what I'm doing and what I'm suggesting so that, moving forward, people understand and can trust that I have their best interest at heart.

This is not wanting to do biopsies to get some more RVUs or, uh -- >> To make the things that you code to make money as a doctor.

>> Exactly.

Exactly.

This is not about that.

Uh, this is about providing the most personalized, most specific care for each individual.

And that may be different from person to person.

It really should be.

Um, you know, and one of the gentleman mentioned the reluctance to have a digital rectal examination.

Uh, and -- and I understand that.

I'm a man.

I'm reluctant to have it done myself.

Uh, but it's worth the conversation, uh, really, to figure out is that the best thing?

Should we get the blood work first and see -- see what it is?

Is there any imaging that we can do that would potentially obviate having to do the rectal exam.

So there are options.

>> You know, I am so glad that you brought up the most important "T" word that we can have, and that's the "trust" word.

And I'm glad to hear that you're the kind of physician that works hard on establishing that trustworthy relationship, because I think we've had too many episodes in our community, in our history of our community, where we feel that we have been mistreated, poorly treated, and we've had a litany of those examples.

But what happens if we allow that distrust to affect how we engage with the system?

>> Right.

So I think you really have to do your due diligence to find a physician that you're comfortable with.

You don't have to take the first opinion.

Always seek a second opinion.

If you're not satisfied, try to get a third opinion.

Ask people in the community.

Ask friends.

Have these kinds of conversations because, you know, my doctor may not be as good as your doctor, and you may have a rapport with them I didn't have with my doctor.

And you may suggest that I see your doctor and -- and I think that's important because at the end of the day, you have to be comfortable with whatever decision you make and know that it's the best decision at the time you made it with the information that you had.

There can't be any decision -- >> And there are just so many really good, trustworthy clinicians and doctors in our community.

And let's don't ever let mistrust or distrust keep us from doing what's in our own best interests.

Dr. Coleman, one other thing.

We've talked a lot about prostate cancer.

It's come up several times, the fear that you, you know, you don't want to go through the examination process or the fear that you're going to die if you have it.

Tell us a little bit about the survival of this disease.

Can people get prostate cancer and live a long life with it?

>> People can get prostate cancer and live a long life with it.

Um, don't let fear stand in the way.

What you don't know could hurt you, but in general, most men who have prostate cancer can live a long time with it.

I would say -- I would like to say that, um, it's important to -- to be open with your doctor.

It's important to keep in mind at Howard we have a Men Take Ten prostate cancer screening program.

Um, it's been in effect for over 10 years.

We've screened over 3,000 men.

And I would say right now, we're actually -- It's fine if you don't want to have a digital rectal examination.

We will take that into account.

We're not going to force you to do that.

But we would like to get the prostate blood test.

It's like getting your cholesterol or your sugar.

You should know what your prostate health is.

>> Yes.

You have a quick comment?

>> One thing, you can have a PSA level low, but when I had the rectal test, they felt a nodule.

So you can have a nodule and it can be cancerous, but your PSA could be a little low and they can't pick it up.

That's why you need a rectal exam.

>> To ask you, Dr. Deane, to help us, is that -- people present in many different ways.

Diseases present in many different ways.

People are unique.

And so I think what this sort of argues for is, again, back to that trusting relationship where the clinician and the patient can have a meaningful relationship, a conversation, to do the things that are important for that person.

>> Yes, you can have a normal PSA and -- and have prostate cancer.

>> Right.

>> What we have to establish, though, is what an individual's risk is.

So if the risk is high and the PSA is normal, we're going to follow that person quite closely.

Being a Black man increases our risk from baseline.

And that's very well -- very well known.

Uh, things like family history.

Does a brother have it?

Does a father have it?

Are there women in the family with breast cancer, ovarian cancer, pancreatic cancer?

All of these things help to risk stratify folks.

And we really need to -- to take that into as good and as in-depth consideration as we can so that we make the right decision for the individual who is sitting in the office.

>> And I think that it becomes very obvious to all of us, and I hope it's obvious to everyone in the listening audience, is that you can't have these kinds of person-specific, individual conversations if you don't start.

You've got to start.

And then where does it start?

From everything that you all have been saying, and I think you've taught me a lot today, is it starts with you deciding to care about whether you live or whether you die.

We don't have to have our hands tied behind our back and just take life as it comes.

We can be in control, and that starts with a mental attitude, is what you all have said.

And then we bring that desire to have a great life to our clinician, find trustworthy clinicians that can help us to have an honest conversation and share it.

Well, I want to thank you all very, very much for a really enlightening conversation.

And it's time for a short break.

We'll be right back.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> I went to Walter Reed for my annual, um, prostate screening in 2003.

And during that time, in 2003, um, my... the part of the test that you will get for the prostate screening for all men is that you get a blood test called a PSA, which is prostate-specific antigen, and if necessary, the doctor will do what they call a DRE, a digital rectal exam.

So in February 2003, uh, my urologist went and did the procedure and, um, and took the blood test.

And at that time, um, I've been having these, um, the screening done for many, many years.

And I had no concern because everything had been normal.

And, um, during that period of time and then subsequently, um, about two or three weeks after the blood test, uh, my urologist called me and said, um, "Artie, your PSA is within the normal range," and the normal range is what we call 0 to 4 nanograms.

He said, "But it's slightly elevated."

He said, "Because you're an African American, you have a positive family history.

Your uncle died from metastatic prostate cancer.

Your father has a PSA, uh, elevation."

And he said, "I would like to do a biopsy."

And the purpose of the biopsy is to confirm whether there might be prostate cancer.

My colleague said to me, "Artie, you have prostate cancer."

I elected at that time in 2003 to, um, have a surgical procedure called a radical prostatectomy, where they do surgery and they remove the entire -- the entire prostate.

At this time, I'm a 21-year -- a 21-year prostate cancer survivor because of early detection and screening.

>> Welcome back to "For Our Brothers," a candid conversation on Black men's health.

Gentlemen, conversations about our health can and should be taken seriously, but we should also have fun as well.

So I'd like to introduce you to a new game called The Wheel of Whoa!

We have emojis, much like the ones we see in the doctor's office when they ask us to rate our pain.

Here they represent some topics that make us say "whoa!"

Let's begin.

Brother Burnside, please give the wheel a spin.

[ Wheel clacking ] Whoa!

Gentlemen, your aunt has been trying to get your uncle to get a physical for the longest time.

She has noticed that he has a lump on his neck, but he still won't go.

She wants you to go talk to him.

What do you say?

>> Take him by the hand and say, "We're going to the doctor, and I'm going to go with you so we can find out what's going on."

>> It's a family affair.

>> There you go.

>> That's a great answer.

[ Wheel clacking ] Whew!

Your performance in the bedroom has recently become lackluster due to a recent diagnosis of erectile dysfunction that you haven't yet discussed with your wife.

She, by the way, has a high sex drive.

Do you create fights to avoid sex?

Do you lie and say you're not attracted to her anymore?

Do you tell the truth and risk her cheating because you can't satisfy her?

Or none of the above?

Whoa!

>> Whoa!

[ Laughter ] >> But women don't want you to lie about it.

You're going to dig yourself a grave.

>> And she's also your caregiver.

>> Mhm.

>> In a lot of ways, she's your first line caregiver.

So you gotta have the conversation.

You got to be open and candid about, hey, you know, this issue is really impacted me in this regard, and so therefore I really need to have this conversation with you about that and I got to lay it out on the line.

And because women oftentimes are those first line caregivers, and we -- we -- they're there for us when no one else is.

[ Wheel clacking ] >> Ah.

Well, your therapist has been trying to get you to incorporate yoga into your workout as a form of relaxation.

You're apprehensive to try something new.

Brothers, what are your thoughts on alternative forms of physical fitness?

>> I enjoy being out on the golf course.

Uh, you have beautiful landscape.

Uh, it's serene.

Uh, you can become one with nature.

I find that as a better alternative for me.

Um, initially I thought about yoga, but I was reluctant because the class is typically all women.

>> Mm.

>> But I had that happy medium in golf, and I'm thankful.

>> I'll tell you personally, um, I am really into tai chi.

I really enjoy it.

It looks very different.

Uh, but I'll tell you, it is one of the best ways for me to stretch my body.

Every -- Every joint and muscle in my body gets a workout.

Uh, and it's -- and it's -- and I get peace of mind.

So I will say anybody that's reluctant to try new things, oh, don't shortchange your life.

I mean, there's so many exciting ways of doing, so many new ways of experiencing the world and being healthy.

So take it from at least one person, don't be afraid to do new things.

[ Wheel clacking ] >> Ah.

>> Another one.

>> Your monthly routine of a nail trim, buff, and facial have quickly become your new self-care indulgence.

Naturally, your boys are clowning you.

How do you assure them that you're still a man's man and it's okay, because you're finding a place where you really care about your appearance?

>> Whoa.

>> First and foremost -- >> Whoa!

>> First and foremost, I don't have to reassure them because I'm very, very, very comfortable with who I am, okay?

And I like to kind of go out.

I mean, go out there at least twice a month and get the pedicure, okay?

Um, because of the self-care and because of how it makes me feel, I'm very comfortable with that.

And besides, you know, I've tried doing the thing myself, but I'm not as good at it as professionals are.

So I enjoy that aspect of it.

>> That's interesting because I just got a manicure yesterday, and, you know, and -- and I... believe that you've got to take care of yourself.

You've got -- Especially as you get older, you know, you deserve this.

Your body deserves it.

And mentally, it's good to have someone to pamper you and take care of you and for you to take care of yourself.

Just like you want to take care of yourself mentally -- mentally and physically, you want to be able to enjoy the pleasures of life as well.

>> And because you are a man's man, I'm good with whatever decisions I make.

Imma take care of me.

And if I'm worried about what somebody else thinks about me, I ain't a man's man anymore.

So I think that's pretty good.

Spin it.

[ Laughter ] [ Wheel clacking ] Ah, this is an interesting one.

You've been an avid cyclist and belong to a cycling club.

You've been avoiding invitations to ride lately because you can no longer physically keep up and you're embarrassed to say so.

Do you drop out of the club and blame it on "my busy work schedule"?

Do you drop out of the club and blame it on a groin injury?

Do you drop out of the club and blame it on your wife?

[ Laughter ] >> Or none of the above?

>> None of the above.

As an avid cyclist, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't -- I wouldn't suggest dropping out of the club.

But what I would suggest is maybe riding with the slower group.

>> I was just about to say.

>> Yeah.

>> Um...

In cycling, there's a A, B, C and D class of cycling.

So if you're not as fast as you were before, then I would just stay with the club, but actually would just lower the category of riding.

>> The same thing.

>> I was going to say kind of what he was saying, but I think also too, you just got to be comfortable with yourself.

You know, at the end of the day, either you continue to keep riding, you ride with a slower group, or find another hobby.

>> Yeah.

Well, I tell you, as an avid cyclist, I had to make that decision.

And I just still enjoy riding, I just don't ride with the fastest group.

But I'm still out there.

I'm still getting healthy.

I'm still in nature.

I'm looking around, I'm enjoying my life.

And if the 14-year-old kid wants to go whizzing by, have a nice day.

My bank account is bigger than yours.

[ Laughter ] [ Wheel clacking ] You finally listened to your wife and agreed to go bald and grow a beard.

[ Laughter ] You'll love this.

The response has been overwhelming, especially with the ladies on the job.

You've been enjoying this new attention.

How do you convince your wife that this doesn't change how you feel about her?

>> Oh, wow.

>> Mike?

[ Laughter ] >> Doc, I had that discussion just yesterday.

My wife, uh, is interested in the number of women that seem to be, I don't know, carrying conversations a little longer.

>> Talk about it now.

[ Laughter ] >> I said, "Baby, I'm yours."

[ Laughter ] Where am I going to go?

>> I like that answer.

"Listen.

Baby, I'm yours."

That's the anti-whoa.

Spin it.

[ Wheel clacking ] Oh, this one is specially made for our young brother.

You're in your 30s and have always been physically fit.

Lately, you've become very sluggish... >> Oh, man.

>> ...experiencing -- You said, "Whoa!"

[ Laughter ] You've become very sluggish, experiencing excessive thirst and losing weight.

Diabetes, of which these are signs, runs in your family.

But you've always been healthy.

What do you do?

>> Ah, well, you know, acknowledgement is key and making sure that you accept, you know, the ugly truth, but then also just go get checked out, you know?

Um, it doesn't help for you to be a man's man or let that ego oversee what the future can hold for you as far as your health, so you got to accept it.

Go see the doctor and then follow the next steps.

>> We'll leave it right there.

Thank you, brothers.

That was great.

More "For Our Brothers," a candid conversation on Black men's health, when we return.

♪♪ ♪♪ Welcome back.

Brothers, our time is quickly coming to a close and it has indeed been an incredible conversation.

[ Applause ] If we had to reiterate a few points to leave our audience with, I'm looking for five takeaway pieces of advice that you would give other Black men to advance their health.

So look right into that camera, and what do you have to say?

>> Be proactive.

Make sure that you get the checkups that you need and know what to look for when you go.

>> Be proactive.

>> When you see your doctor, don't just let him tell you you're okay, you're fine.

What does fine -- What does okay mean?

Get those numbers, because 0 to 4 for a PSA is normal.

But if you had a spike 1 to 4 or 1 to 4.5, it could be -- make a big difference in your health.

>> Let me just make sure on this one.

This is -- This is a key takeaway I think.

So you're saying that if the doctor says you're fine, everything is good, then don't just leave.

Make sure you understand all of the things you need to understand.

>> Exactly.

>> That's a great point.

>> Yeah.

>> You gotta realize you have to be the difference maker in your circle of brothers.

You may have to be the one to change the conversation.

It can't just be about football and women and other stuff that we talk about.

Brother, when the last time you've been to the doctor?

It needs to be on the agenda for those conversations with your brothers.

>> Wow.

Let me -- Now, that's one worth underscoring.

So you're saying that when we're sitting around having fun, talking crap, who's the greatest basketball point guard ever, you know -- which, by the way... No, I won't say.

[ Laughter ] But when you're doing that, you're saying every once in a while we got to slip in the health message.

Because as important as the sports is, living is a little more.

Is that your point?

>> Correct.

Take charge of your health.

And that includes everything that's been said here today, everything that's metabolically about your health, understanding your numbers, being engaged with asking questions, informed decision making about your health.

>> Why?

>> Because it educates you and lets you know you're not just leaving that with something being told that it's okay, you're good, but you've gone a bit further and you understand more so about what all that means as it relates to your health.

>> One thing I'll say is take control of the diagnosis.

You have to take control of the diagnosis.

You have to ask questions, ask the scary questions.

Don't be an order taker.

A lot of times we are silent and we just take the orders, but we don't ask the questions or do the research so we can be knowledgeable about what is going on in our bodies.

>> So let me -- let me again make sure I really appreciate this point.

Others of your colleagues have said we had to take charge of our health to prevent problems, take charge of our health because we want to be vigorous and strong people and identify problems early and then get them resolved.

You're saying when you finally find out that you have a problem, you're saying take charge of your diagnosis.

>> You have to, you have to, because at the end of the day, you can have a physician that might tell you something, but you have to also make sure you're comfortable with that.

>> Okay.

And last comment?

>> When I found out I had problems, I took charge of it right away.

I went to the doctor, got checked, I went and got follow up MRI.

I did the whole procedure because I want to be sure of my health.

I'm not going to let it go just like that.

>> Good for you.

>> Well, thank you very much, brothers, for those takeaways that are -- they are -- they are well expressed and I think they're about as good five takeaways as we could find.

Dr.

Walks and Dr. Coleman, your insight and feedback have been very important in guiding us to this conversation.

What are your final thoughts?

>> I have -- I have one.

We talk about keeping it real.

How many of us have a car that we depend on and we decide not to get it checked for four years?

Five years?

Oh, we're not even worried about the oil.

I don't know what kind of oil is in the car.

I don't know, you know, it's a high performance car, but I'm putting regular in there because it's cheaper.

We don't do that.

All I'm -- Mama said if you can't afford to replace it, take care of it.

Treat your body at least as good as you treat your car.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, I'm just sort of, as you were saying, that my mind went to all the brothers who wash and wax their car all the time, but they don't wash and wax themselves.

>> Yes.

>> That's a really interesting thought.

So maybe, if we could just say to everybody, when you are washing your car or watching somebody else wash your car, use that moment to check in and say, wait a minute, how am I doing?

How is my mental health doing?

How's my physical health?

When's the last time I went to the doctor?

Am I taking my medicine?

>> Yes.

Yes.

>> Dr. Coleman?

>> Yes.

Thank you.

So I would say know your prostate health.

It's part of you.

It's part of your body.

It's normal.

Don't be afraid.

Don't be afraid of the diagnosis.

Find a physician that you understand and understands you and you can communicate with and you can trust and you can have a shared decision making with that physician.

And you can keep going.

You can survive prostate cancer if you should get it.

It's not a death sentence.

It can be treated, and so -- and you can have a wonderful life afterwards.

>> I really, really, really want to thank you for that last comment.

And let's just remember, don't let fear be the driver of our life.

Let us be the driver of our own life.

Well, there you have it.

The reflections and guidance of Black men to other Black men to advance our collective health.

The stereotypes, the statistics, let's face it -- they can be bleak.

But we also have the power to take control over our own health if we're willing to do so for the sake of ourselves, for the sake of our families, and for the sake of our community.

I hope this candid conversation doesn't end here.

I hope it sparks you to take it to your workplace, to the barbershop, on the golf course, to the card table, or wherever you and your friends gather.

Let's look out for one another and, remember, if Black lives matter, and they do, they have to matter to us first.

Thank you for watching.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> This program was brought to you by WHUT and made possible by contributions from viewers like you.

For more information on this program or any other program, please visit our website at whut.org.

Thank you.