Washington Week full episode, November 18, 2022

Yamiche Alcindor: The end of an era.

Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA): For me, the hour has come for a new generation to lead the Democratic caucus.

Yamiche Alcindor: Nancy Pelosi, the first woman elected speaker in the face of Congressional Democrats for two decades steps down as partyús leader in the House.

Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA): We have fired Nancy Pelosi.

Yamiche Alcindor: And Republicans celebrate after taking control of the House.

Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) : Right now, we need new leadership.

Yamiche Alcindor: But with an underwhelming performance in the midterms and Democrats keeping control of the Senate, the GOP is split over who to blame.

Donald Trump, Former U.S. President: In order to make America great and glorious again, I am tonight announcing my candidacy for president of the United States.

Yamiche Alcindor: And whether having former President Trump at the top of the 2024 ticket is a winning plan.

Plus -- Merrick Garland, Attorney General: Appointing a special counsel at this time is the right thing to do.

The extraordinary circumstances presented here demand it.

Yamiche Alcindor: -- the attorney general appoints a special counsel to oversee the DOJús investigations of the former president, next.

Good evening and welcome to Washington Week.

On Thursday, Nancy Pelosi, the first woman elected speaker of the House, made history as she announced her retirement as leader of the Democratic caucus.

Pelosi led House Democrats for two decades, including a combined eight years as House speaker.

During an emotional speech, she said she will remain in Congress and reflected on her efforts.

Nancy Pelosi: I have enjoyed working with three presidents, achieving historical investments in clean energy with President George Bush, transformative health care reform with President Barack Obama and forging the future from infrastructure to health care to climate action with President Joe Biden.

Yamiche Alcindor: Pelosiús move comes after Republicans won back control of the House with a slim majority.

They are expected to be led by current House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy after he was nominated to be speaker by GOP House members.

Here is McCarthy after Republicans won the final seat needed to capture a majority.

Kevin McCarthy: Iúm proud to announce the era of one party Democrat rule in Washington is over.

Washington now has a check and balance.

The American people have a say in their government.

And this new Republican leadership team is ready to get to work to put America back on the right track.

Yamiche Alcindor: On Wednesday, President Biden congratulated Republicans.

In a statement, Biden said he was, quote, ready to work with House Republicans to deliver results for working families.

On the Senate side, Democrats were able to hold onto control after key midterm wins.

And Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell survived the first ever attempt to end his record long tenure as GOP Senate leader.

Meanwhile this week with some other big news, former President Donald Trump announced he is running for president again.

And today, Attorney General Merrick Garland announced he had some news of his own.

He is appointing a special counsel to lead the Justice Departmentús investigation into Trump, including his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results and his handling classified documents after he left office.

Joining me tonight to discuss this and more, Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent at The New York Times, he is also the co-author, along with his wife, Susan Glasser, of the book, The Divider, Trump and the White House from 2017 and 2020, and Errin Haines, Editor-at-Large at The 19th.

And joining me here in studio, Molly Ball, National Political Correspondent for TIME Magazine and author of Pelosi, a biography of the speaker of the House, and last but not the least, Leigh Ann Caldwell, co-author of the Washington Post Early 202 newsletter and anchor of The Washington Post Live.

So, thank you all for being here.

Molly, I want to come to you.

You interviewed the House speaker after she made this historic announcement that she is stepping down.

Tell me a bit about what Pelosi told you about her own decision, but also the future of her party.

Molly Ball, National Political Correspondent, TIME: Thatús right.

She had just come off the House floor where she had given that speech, where you noticed she mentioned it she enjoyed working with three presidents.

Thereús another president that she did not mention that she perhaps did not enjoy working with so much, that being President Trump.

But it is very interesting.

Iúve obviously covered and studied her for a long time.

And she was in this sort of flustered mood.

We tried to pin her down, was she happy, was she sad, was she relieved, did she have any trepidation?

She seemed very at peace with her decision.

And the word she came up with finally was that she felt balanced.

It was sort of a balance of all of those different emotions.

She talked a lot about the past, about her political legacy from her father and having been to the House floor for the first time when she was six years old and he was a member of Congress.

And so she was clearly reflecting on the sort of grand span of her career.

But at the same time, she was very excited about her future.

Sheús given up her leadership position but she will be staying in Congress as just regular rank-and-file member of the House Democratic caucus.

And she seems pretty excited about that.

She feels like itús something she missed out on for the last couple of decades.

She talks about wanting to really spend time in her district, being able to represent her constituents in a way that she has not been able to as sheús been crisscrossing the country with all the responsibilities of the speaker, raising money at an incredible pace.

Sheús raised more than $1 billion over the course of her career for the House Democrats.

Yamiche Alcindor: And Pelosi is not the only one who thatús going to be stepping down.

You have other leaders, Jim Clyburn, Steny Hoyer.

They are also stepping aside, it seems, for a new generation of Democratic leaders.

Talk about that and what that means for the party.

Molly Ball: Yes.

There has been a lot of angst in the ranks of the House Democratic caucus at the fact that these three leaders have been together at the top for 15 years, and that means that there has been no way for ambitious young Democrats to move up in the ranks and make their own career and to put a new face on the party.

And as much as House Democrats broadly support Pelosi, Hoyer and Clyburn, and are sad to see them go, I think there is a lot relief that there will be this generational turnover and surprisingly a little drama considering how many ambitious people are in that caucus has proceeded in very orderly fashion.

It looks almost guaranteed that Hakeem Jeffries, the current chair of the caucus, will become the new Democratic leader.

And he has a deal with Katherine Clark of Massachusetts and Pete Aguilar from California to be second and third.

So, it will be a very orderly transition.

But all three of them are younger by three decades than the leaders theyúll be replacing.

So, it really will be a whole new era in the House Democratic caucus.

Yamiche Alcindor: Itús certainly a systemic shift, Leigh Ann.

And whatús interesting about Pelosi is even when you talk to Republicans, some of them want to say this off-the-record, but there was a lot of respect, she was very effective.

She had loyalty with Democrats but also a little bit of fear mixed in there.

Talk a little bit about what youúre hearing about her time and the way forward.

Leigh Ann Caldwell, Co-Author, The Washington Post Early 202: Yes.

So, it is a lot.

I was talking to a lot of members of Congress, a lot Democrats especially, yesterday on Capitol Hill.

And they were so full of emotion.

It was almost hard for them to even articulate how they felt.

Every single person there, many Republicans, not all, but the ones who have been there for a while, and Democrats know that she has been a transformational leader, the things that she has been able to do with presidents on both sides of the aisle, the fact that she was able to pass such monumental legislation just in the past two years with a five-seat, sometimes only four seat majority in the House of Representative, which is going to mimic what Kevin McCarthy is most likely going to have moving forward.

So, it will be an interesting test of contrast here.

But Democrats, as Molly said, they use the word, bittersweet.

They feel that they were so honored to be able to learn from her, to be able to be governed by her, to have a leader like her, but people are also ready for something new.

And I think that they are really excited about the future but theyúre also a little worried and trepidatious, especially on the fundraising front.

Everyone has mentioned the fundraising, the amount of money she has been able to raise.

No one has been able to match it.

Of course, when youúre in the position of leader, you automatically raise more money, you have to do more, but that is definitely a concern for people.

Yamiche Alcindor: And you talk about a test for contrast.

I want to ask you a bit about whatús going on in the GOP side.

Kevin McCarthy doesnút have, it seems right now at least, the floor votes to be House speaker.

He needs 218.

There are some lawmakers on the record in his party saying he doesnút have the votes yet, which is pretty interesting.

But you also had Mitch McConnell being challenged by Rick Scott.

Tell me about the internal dynamics there and the way forward for the Republicans.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: The Republican Party is at such an interesting moment right now.

They have been for a few years with Donald Trump at the helm.

But Donald Trump had such a grip on the party, and now you are seeing this split and the challenges in Congress especially with the kind of more MAGA side of the party really challenging more traditional Republicans.

And you have the Republicans like Mitch McConnell and even John Thune, the number two, they are trying to hold onto a Republican party of the past.

They want that to be the party of the future.

And then thereús this new generation of Republicans, younger, more conservative, more extreme, who think that the party is something different and they are trying to push their own agenda and their own ideals and their own policies.

So, itús going to be really, really fascinating in the next two years with this divided Congress, divided government and such a small majority.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Errin, I mean, Leigh Ann here is calling it fascinating, it might be fascinating, it might be a little chaotic, tell me what you are hearing as Nancy Pelosi steps down, especially when it comes to this sort of generational shift thatús coming as governing might become harder in this Congress.

Errin Haines, Editor-at-Large, The 19th: Yes, fascinating, interesting, all of the above.

Good to be with you on quite a Washington Week, Yamiche.

I mean, look, I think we also have to talk about the reality that representation matters, and for 35 years, Nancy Pelosi has been a standard bearer for the Democratic Party.

So, what does it mean in terms of gender and power and leadership?

I mean, she talked in that floor speech about how, when she came to Congress, there were 12 Democratic women, and now there are over 90.

And she is still wanting to see that number grow, talked about, as Molly said, being on the House floor for the first time at six years old and saying she never taught she would go from being a homemaker to being House leader.

So, just what she has been able to do to really expand this countryús political imagination, I think, really does say a lot and will have a big effect on what representation means going forward.

But even in her exit, she is still somebody who is leading, right, saying that she is going to step aside and clear the way for this younger and more diverse generation of leadership.

And, honestly, that is something that is more reflective of where the Democratic Party is today.

I mean, you look at if House leadership is to go through as advertised with Hakeem Jeffries, Katherine Clark and Pete Aguilar, I mean, that is the future of this party, younger voters, women, people of color really representing at the highest levels of government.

These are the base voters of the Democratic Party.

And so to see them reflected in for her to acknowledge that that really is where the party needs to go, I think, is also an example and a testament to her leadership.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Peter, all of this is coming as President Biden is getting ready to turn 80 years old.

I wonder what you are hearing from White House officials about his own political future and also the future of his agenda, because Republicans are going to be the ones in control of the House.

Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Yes, thatús exactly right.

The timing is not necessarily the best from the White Houseús point of view for a senior Democrat to say it is time to hand over power to a new generation, right, because, of course, President Biden turns 80 on Sunday, itús a milestone heús not all that particularly happy about.

He said in a recent interview, I canút even say the word out loud, he canút say the word, eighty, out loud.

He said, I donút believe it, I canút believe it, understandably, of course, and, politically, of course.

He is not eager to advertise that, the first octogenarian president weúve had at a time when he is thinking about whether to run for reelection or not.

If he runs for reelection, that age question is going to come up again and again.

He has said itús a legitimate question to ask.

He would be 86 at the end of a second term.

Weúve obviously not had a president at that stage before.

And, in fact, people who ask questions about that, of course, the last question is about Donald Trump.

He is four years younger than President Biden but there have been questions about whether age has diminished his capacity as well.

So, these are issues weúre going to be seeing.

But itús really a generational moment, right?

We see these two elder statesmen, if you will, not statesmen necessarily, elder figures of their two parties preparing to head off against each other for the presidency at a time when the House leadership is passing the buck now to a new generation and showing that itús time to give the reins to Hakeem Jeffries and his team at a younger age.

So, look, President Biden will say, judge me not by my age as a number but judge me by the actions I am able to accomplish, the things I have been able to put on the scoreboard, in effect, legislations, in effect, peopleús lives.

And that will be the argument that he will make going forward.

But itús telling, of course, that on Sunday, he is not going to have some sort of public show about his birthday.

His wife will throw a nice brunch for him and I donút expect that you will see a lot of cameras there.

Yamiche Alcindor: Well, thatús surprising.

I thought maybe there might be some hip-hop stars or someone, Cardi B. maybe at the White House.

But, apparently, that is not happening, Peter.

I do want to stick with you for a minute, because A.G., Attorney General Merrick Garland, he had some news of his own, which is that he is now appointing a special counsel to oversee investigations into Donald Trump.

He said part of the reason why he was doing this, he almost felt like his hand was forced because now Donald Trump is running for president.

What more do we know about this decision and the implications there?

Peter Baker: Yes.

Look, I think he resisted this for a long time.

Heús told us for two years that the Justice Department could act fairly in the case, even though that itús obviously fraught with politics.

But once you have Donald Trump as an active candidate running against Merrick Garlandús boss, presumably, assuming President Biden does run for reelection, it becomes that much more complicated.

And if you look at the rules for when you appoint a special counsel, in Merrick Garlandús view, all three criteria were met, which is, is there a potential crime, is there a perception of conflict of interest, and is it in the national interest, is it in the public interest to have a special counsel?

Now, a special counsel is not fully independent, though.

A special counsel still reports to the attorney general in the end.

And it will be in the end the attorney generalús decision whether to press charges or not.

But I think by having a special counsel look at the evidence, what Merrick Garland is trying to say is it will not be as politically radioactive as it would have been if he, the presidentús appointment, had done it.

Having said that, President Trump is going to speak later tonight, he is not, of course, accepting this with equanimity.

He is saying itús political anyway.

So, may be appointing a special counsel does not, in fact, cure the issue, which is the perception of politics, or at least the tool -- it is a good thing for President Trump to be able to point, to be able to say it is political.

Because the more he says itús political, the more he convinces his base that he is not guilty of anything.

Anything that happens to him is because his rivals are out to get him.

Thatús the line heús going to use.

So, it is a fraught moment and itús going to be hard and a challenge for both Merrick Garland and his new special counsel, Jack Smith, to go forward and make sure they look as apolitical as possible as they evaluate the evidence and bring it forward, if they do.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Molly, you were at Mar-a-Lago for President Trumpús announcement.

What do you make of the special counsel being brought in?

And what -- tell us a little bit about also your observations having seen Trump in person make this announcement.

Molly Ball: Yes.

It was really hard to avoid feeling like Trump had sort of been cornered into making this announcement.

He was sort of trapped, right, because he put this on the calendar before the election at a time when he and pretty much everyone else expected there would be a big Republican victory to celebrate.

And then when that didnút happen, he didnút feel like he could back down or cancel or postpone even though there were a lot of people urging him to do that in particular with this runoff in Georgia still on the schedule in early December.

So, he seemed like he did not want to be there.

A lot of people have used the phrase, low-energy, the memorable Trump coinage that he applied to Jeb Bush in 2016, but he was sort of a glaring at the teleprompter, like it had made him mad in some way.

It was a speech that -- it was a scripted speech.

He mostly stuck to the script.

He did not attack his rivals, he did not go off on Ron DeSantis or anybody else, which is he had one in the days preceding the announcement.

He talked a lot about policy, talked about the successes of his administration, the failures of the Biden administration, just making the case for why he believes he needs to run again.

But it was a very long speech, most of his speeches are.

Iúve rarely seen a Trump speech that was less than an hour.

And it was a packed ballroom, the sort of usual crew of hangers on, whether you are talking to people who go to the rallies or the members of Mar-a-Lago who tend to hang out, or the former figures in Trumpús administration.

But one thing missing that was sitting Republican-elected officials, not have any sitting members of Congress except for the disgraced soon-to-be former representative, Madison Cawthorn.

And even now, several days later, there have been very few endorsements for the former president.

So, if he thought he was going to sort of be able to waltz into this nomination having already run twice, and that doesnút look like itús going to happen, it really looks like itús going to be a rocky road for him, particularly with the continuing recriminations from the midterms.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Leigh Ann, one thing that is the sort of result of Republicans not doing as well as they wanted to in the midterms, is that Democrats rather still have control of the Senate and they can still get through judicial nominees, which is critical in the minds of a lot of White House officials that Iúve been talking to.

Can you talk a little bit about that and sort of the real results of the fact that this Trump sort of endorsed midterms, that they did not go the way Republicans wanted them to go?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, thereús a huge impact on both sides.

So, there is going to be very little policy that comes out of the next two years.

Itús going to be a lot of gridlock.

Itús going to be a lot fighting.

Itús going to be very difficult for Congress to do the things it has to do, like fund the government or lift the debt limit, which is where the United States has to pay its credit card bills.

But one thing that the Senate can do, like you mentioned, is confirm Bidenús judicial nominees and his administration officials, and that is huge.

So, for the past six months, Democrats had been working so quickly in the Senate, as quickly as possible, everything moves slowly, to confirm as many people as possible, because they thought that they were not going to have control of the Senate the next two years.

They were judges, judges, judges.

Now that they have that, they are going to continue and to try to remake the federal judiciary.

They already have installed a record number of judges in the first two years.

They are going to keep moving along that pace.

And so this is kind of the Mitch McConnell playbook, trying to do what McConnell did over the last four years of the Trump administration.

Yamiche Alcindor: Another thing that Senate Democrats are doing is that they pushed for marriage equality.

And I should say, 12 Republicans, it seems, also voted along with them to advance this bill, but that also shows you that they are trying to get stuff done.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, they are, especially in this lame duck session, when Democrats still have control of both Houses of Congress.

The House passed it before the elections.

Now, the Senate is set to pass it after Thanksgiving.

And these procedural votes, theyúve got the support 12 Republicans, which is pretty significant.

And they have a long list of things that they are trying to do when they get back.

We will see how much they are going to get done but one of them is the Electoral Count Act, to make sure what happened on January 6th, 2021 does not happen again.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Errin, talk about what you think and what your reporting shows, Republicans might do with the power that they will wield in the House coming up.

Errin Haines: Yes.

I mean, to Leigh Annús point, Republicans are going to be focused on investigations.

They have already signaled their day one agenda.

And unless I missed anything, that really did not include much in the way of legislative priorities.

And that makes sense again to Leigh Annús point, they wonút be able to get much, if anything, passed or signed into law in a Democratic-controlled Senate and a White House.

So, really, I think raising concerns about Democrats ahead of the 2024 election, also helps Republicans as they head out on the campaign trail, given the talking points, headed to into a presidential year.

But I think also this announcement of this Department of Justice special counsel in Mar-a-Lago and the January 6th probe will be something of a counterweight, although, obviously, these are two different arenas with two very different potential consequences.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Errin, I wanted to just stick with you.

You are obviously from Georgia.

That runoff is going to be happening.

Tell me a little bit about the consequences here of the GOPús possibly sticking with Trump and what you are hearing from people who are sort wondering whether or not the party can pivot away from him.

Errin Haines: Yes.

Well, I mean, you saw in Trumpús announcement of his third presidential campaign.

Again, he mentioned Herschel Walker in that speech.

He encouraged voters in Georgia to stick with Herschel Walker.

The Herschel Walker-Trump relationship still seems to be pretty strong, although he did not come to Georgia to campaign for him in a general.

And Iúd be curious to see if he plans on doing that between now and that runoff election.

But many of the voters that I saw on the ground in Georgia, very much the ones who are in support of Herschel Walker were also very much still in support of the former president.

And so that still could be a very strong relationship that could be potent for Walker in a way that it didnút necessarily factor into, say, for example, governorús race in Georgia.

Yamiche Alcindor: And, Peter, because it was such a crazy week in news, I want to ask you about your -- help me with a little bit of your Russia experience as a reporter, having reported there.

Tell us a little bit about this Poland missile attack.

So many people thought, wait, are we about to go into World War III?

I know the midterms are important, but tell us the biggest take away there.

Peter Baker: Yes, I think that is the biggest takeaway.

It is a red flag because it shows how close we could come to escalatory spiral, right?

We donút pay a lot of attention day in and day out here to the war in Ukraine, but it is ravaging that country.

So far, it has stayed contained within that country.

But there is a chance at any moment it could spill over, and if it spills over, like it seemed to do for a few minutes in Poland or another NATO ally, then that raises the question about what the United States and what the rest of Europe are going to do in response.

Fortunately, in this case, it does appear to be more of an accidental situation, where the Ukrainian defense missile tried to shoot down a Russian missile cross over the line as opposed to some sort a Russian attack or even Russian-sponsored accident that would have still raised a lot of questions.

It is obviously a tragedy because a couple of people have died.

But for this moment at least, we are not looking at the knifeús edge of a wider war.

But you can see how easily it could happen.

It could happen at almost any moment.

And I donút know that the rest of the world is really prepared for that, really ready for what that might look like, because you have Russia and the United States on the opposite sides of a shooting war.

You donút know how far it will lead.

Yamiche Alcindor: And i some ways in the last five seconds or so we have here, Peter, it really shows how important who is president is in this country, in abroad.

Peter Baker: That is exactly right.

The person you want to be in charge at a time when we face in theory that most nuclear, dangerous moment since the Cuban missile crisis is all the more important.

And that reemphasizes the stakes in this 2024 election.

Yamiche Alcindor: Yes.

Well, weúll have to leave it there.

Thank you so much tonight to our panel for bringing all of your stellar reporting.

And thank you all of you at home for joining us and watching.

And on tomorrows PBS News Weekend, what the appointment of a special counsel means for former President Trumpús ongoing legal troubles.

Iúm Yamiche Alcindor.

Good night from Washington.